Maybe the70judge or numbers_guy can help with this myth:
During the 1970 production year for the GTO in Oshawa they ran out of the 400 Pontiac engines for assembly and installed 396/402 Chevys. The rumor I heard, and I emphasize RUMOR is that there were 11 or 12 built. Anyone ever heard this one????
427carl said
Jan 28, 2008
I wonder what color they would be?
the70judge said
Jan 28, 2008
I Have heard and some of the Pontiac guys over on Performance years forum have talked about them. But, I heard that they used the 454, and they apparently built 12.
I have been into Pontiacs or the GM A body style, since 1974 and so far not one has surfaced. It sure would be something to find..
4SPEED427 said
Jan 29, 2008
It seems unlikely, considering the need for a much different wiring harness in the engine compartment, different brackets, pulleys, different transmission to fit the block etc. But, my favorite saying, "Never say never".
Astro Jet said
Jan 29, 2008
Carl Stevenson wrote:
It seems unlikely, considering the need for a much different wiring harness in the engine compartment, different brackets, pulleys, different transmission to fit the block etc. But, my favorite saying, "Never say never".
I agree, it is not simply a "drop in" switch, motor mounts would be different, the exhaust manifolds exit in a different location so they would have to fab up some different head pipes, etc. This switch would require some "engineering" in order to work properly, not something a bunch of guys on the line could just pull off themselves late at night.....
CDN2PLS2 said
Jan 29, 2008
If the Boys in Oshawa wouldn't put a Blue interior in a Black PickUp for me,when everything is sitting there,just because they say the colours don't go together.They're sure not gonna spend any time fittin" a BB in a GTO!!
Canadian Poncho said
Jan 29, 2008
I remember reading that back in the 60's Chrysler would allow any colour combo. Green with orange interior? Sure, but first the district office would call the dealer to confirm. GM did build a few Corvettes in 2000 in an odd colour combo- Mellenium Yellow with Torch Red interior. A customer came into the dealer I worked at and wanted that combo. At first GM said no, but apparently they got 3 or 4 other requests. They granted the request one time and bult them all in a row. Man the car looked terrible! Too bright! The owner was delighted. He was quite a character with his snake-skin boots!
Todd
Astro Jet said
Jan 29, 2008
CDN2PLS2 wrote:
If the Boys in Oshawa wouldn't put a Blue interior in a Black PickUp for me,when everything is sitting there,just because they say the colours don't go together.They're sure not gonna spend any time fittin" a BB in a GTO!!
Sure they would, you just had to buy 6 of them! You could have put the extras in storage and just taken one down to Barrett Jackson in each year and marketed it as a single digit vehicle, one of six!!! You could be retired now....
CDN2PLS2 said
Jan 29, 2008
Yup after not giving up,and going up the chain of command somebody at Oshawa told me if I put together a few more orders they would build it.Same as today,can't get a new one with what I want either! No Vortec Max with 8 foot box or 20" wheels.
Astro Jet said
Jan 29, 2008
69Laurentian wrote:
I remember reading that back in the 60's Chrysler would allow any colour combo. Green with orange interior? Sure, but first the district office would call the dealer to confirm. GM did build a few Corvettes in 2000 in an odd colour combo- Mellenium Yellow with Torch Red interior. A customer came into the dealer I worked at and wanted that combo. At first GM said no, but apparently they got 3 or 4 other requests. They granted the request one time and bult them all in a row. Man the car looked terrible! Too bright! The owner was delighted. He was quite a character with his snake-skin boots! Todd
That's the biggest problem today, 90% of the cars are either black, white, silver/grey or red. Interiors are 90% charcoal and the rest are beige. BORING! Even a mundane car can be made to look much more attractive with some real colours.
At least they are offering the new Challenger in orange with more 60's colours to come next year. I hope GM is smart enough to do the same thing with the new Camaro, they will need all the help they can get to move those things out the door and justify the huge investment they have made in them.
jfkheat said
Jan 29, 2008
There is a Butternut Yellow 69 Beaumont with a white painted top and red interior. That is one of the oddest color combos I have ever seen.
James
Canadian Poncho said
Jan 29, 2008
I've seen that Beaumont and to be honest, I like the combo. Then again, my Laurentian is Mayfair Maize (Butternut Yellow) with Medium Green Interior....
Numbers_guy said
Jan 30, 2008
Numbers_Guy here,
Well from 1970 onwards the T37, Tempest, LeMans and GTO wre built in Canada. Thanks to Auto Pact they replaced the Beaumont. You could get a Chevy small block 350 installed in those cars so a 396/454 wouldn't be that far of a stretch.
Saw a guy turn his nose in disgust on a '70 LeMans when he opened the hood and saw a Chevy orange 350 small block under the hood. His parting words were "see the original engines missing some nut job put a Chevy 350 small block in it" A quick check of the VIN number and cowl tag showed the car was an Oshawa built car.
The wiring harness wouln't care what its connected to as long as it has the right connectors. Did GM of Canada build any, who knows the engine would fit between the fenders so its possible.
Now all we need to do is find a '70 GTO built in Canada with a 396/454 and we're done.
If it happened they'd be really rare cars, today.
Anyone ever seen a '70 Pontiac Jury?
Canadian Poncho said
Jan 30, 2008
I met a guy in London with a 70 Tempest 2 door sedan and he swears he has documentation to prove it had(IIRC) a GMC 6 (a 292?). I know it was a 6 that didn't belong! It was some evaluation car. Anyone meet this guy? He shows up at the London Canadian tire cruise nights. The car is light green. He has a small block in it now. He bought the car from an elderly lady..
Tell us more about the Jury Numbers Guy. It rings a bell but for the life of me I can't remember what it was all about..
pontiacguy said
Jan 31, 2008
I am sure it's true guyz... Lots of odd stuff happened on the line if there was a motor failure or they ran out .. I have seen a #'s orig 1968 Firebird ( oshawa) with a 283 in it ( butter nut yellow in Nanaimo brent owns it) the car has 350 badges on it. there is also a 1963 pontiac 4 door sedan in Duncan with it's orig 409 in it. I was at a car show in 00 in Summerland and talked with a guy with a 65GTO said he was restoring a 70 goat with its orig 396 BB found it in lower mainland in 85-86. don't remember the guys name but his 65 was iris mist with 389 4 barrel 3 speed.
SD 396 said
Jan 31, 2008
There is a 71 Luxury Lemans 2 door hardtop sitting at the GM dealer 20 minutes from my house. It has been sitting there for years. The car is orange with white interior and a 350 Chevy. I understand this is a rare car as well. It still has all of the trim on it. The owner had some work done on it at the dealership and he left it there when the work was done.
CDN2PLS2 said
Jan 31, 2008
Still don't think it happened.Think of All the different parts,engine harness,p/s hoses,headpipes,starter on opposite side,rad,shroud,fuel lines,etc,etc,etc.Way too many changes for a smooth assy line.
Astro Jet said
Jan 31, 2008
pontiacguy wrote:
I have seen a #'s orig 1968 Firebird ( oshawa) with a 283 in it
You sure about that? To my knowledge, all first gen F bods were assembled at either Lordstown or Van Nuys. Do you have a VIN for it?
-- Edited by Astro Jet at 12:55, 2008-01-31
427carl said
Jan 31, 2008
69Laurentian wrote:
I've seen that Beaumont and to be honest, I like the combo. Then again, my Laurentian is Mayfair Maize (Butternut Yellow) with Medium Green Interior....
I love the yellow, and I love green! lol
Astro Jet said
Jan 31, 2008
CDN2PLS2 wrote:
Still don't think it happened.Think of All the different parts,engine harness,p/s hoses,headpipes,starter on opposite side,rad,shroud,fuel lines,etc,etc,etc.Way too many changes for a smooth assy line.
I agree with Mark. As I stated earlier, this in not a simple drop in switch. What did these guys do, hold up the line while they spliced in a wiring harness from a BB car and made all the other changes?
Guys, you are getting confused with Canadian built cars that were offered from the factory with Chevy engines. 64 or a 65 with 409? No problem, it's right in the Canadian factory sales brochure, it was regular line option. Same thing with a 71 Lemans with the orange Chevy 350 small block, right in the brochure, I've got all of them. A bodies were always available with the Chevy straight six, I know, my dad factory ordered a 70 Cutlass with one and I still have it!
The bottom line is, these combos were available from the factory through the normal ordering process so they had all the proper stuff to go under the hood. Also, don't forget, as crude as they may seem from today's perspective, these cars' build sheets were computer generated. They may have been using punch cards, but they were computer generated none the less. To get all the proper stuff under the hood for a BB GTO, someone would have to have replaced at least half the punch cards that made up the order for the car to get all the proper stuff to the assembly line.
That being said, show me an actual car with paperwork from George and I'll consider it. ;)
Numbers_guy said
Feb 1, 2008
Let be clear on my post earlier. I was only takling about Canadian built cars. So any '70 GTO built in Canada could possibly come with a 396/454 engine if that option was available.
God knows they came out of the same plant that built the Chevelles which had those engines. Wouldn't have been a big production number to do it.
Now buyers have that option I'm not sure.
the70judge said
Feb 4, 2008
Numbers_guy wrote:
Numbers_Guy here,
Well from 1970 onwards the T37, Tempest, LeMans and GTO wre built in Canada. Thanks to Auto Pact they replaced the Beaumont. You could get a Chevy small block 350 installed in those cars so a 396/454 wouldn't be that far of a stretch.
Saw a guy turn his nose in disgust on a '70 LeMans when he opened the hood and saw a Chevy orange 350 small block under the hood. His parting words were "see the original engines missing some nut job put a Chevy 350 small block in it" A quick check of the VIN number and cowl tag showed the car was an Oshawa built car.
The wiring harness wouln't care what its connected to as long as it has the right connectors. Did GM of Canada build any, who knows the engine would fit between the fenders so its possible.
Now all we need to do is find a '70 GTO built in Canada with a 396/454 and we're done. If it happened they'd be really rare cars, today.
Anyone ever seen a '70 Pontiac Jury?
Yep.. there is one in Calgary.. sweet car
And as far as putting a chevy engine in the Lemans/GTO/T37/GT37 bodies.. they were all the same frame as the Chevelles,, It was just a matter of the frame mounts being changed out and a wire harness.. The inner fenders were the same.. battery mounted on the other side and there you were
But as far as a big block in a GTO in 70 , Never seen one and if so it would be worth quite a bit in this day, specially with the doc's.
guidematic said
Feb 5, 2008
Lots of anomoliues occured in those days. Like I remember reading extensively on the possibility of LS-6/L-89 '70 SS454's being built. The L-890 option was available only on the 396/402. But this option was discontinued in Dec. '69. It was said that LS-6 short blocks were substituted in place of the 396 on cars woth paid orders.
The jury was out, and many said "No Way!!" when all of a sudden a documented SS454 LS-6/L-89 4-speed convertible surfaced.
Now, since Chevelles and Tempests were built on the same line in Oshawa, if there had been a lack of the proper Pontiac 400's it would have just been a matter of taking lego out of a differant box to put a 396 GTO together.
Also, I have learned that you can't take what is said in the brochures as gospel. My '73 Canadian Pontiac brochure lists the availability of the SD-455 in the Grand Prix. We all know that never happened. Also, in my '71 Chevy Light trucks brochure, they kist the availability of the LS-6 454 in the El Camino. Also something that didn't happen. The brochures are printed before the cars are built. Due to lead times, some last minute changes are made to the production cars that are not correctly reflected in the brochures.
Also, I have the "Cars" magazine that roadtests a SD-455 powered '73 GTO and declares it the performance car of the year. So I know that at least one of those was built, and I wonder whar became of that car.
Mike
Astro Jet said
Feb 5, 2008
guidematic wrote:
"The jury was out, and many said "No Way!!" when all of a sudden a documented SS454 LS-6/L-89 4-speed convertible surfaced."
Do you have any documentation on this car?
"Now, since Chevelles and Tempests were built on the same line in Oshawa, if there had been a lack of the proper Pontiac 400's it would have just been a matter of taking lego out of a differant box to put a 396 GTO together."
It's one thing to substitute an LS6 block for a regular 396 block because it is a direct bolt in, nothing has to be adjusted or changed. You can make that switch on the line quite easily. It is quite another thing to all of sudden install a Chevy engine in a engine bay set up for a Pontiac block. As Mark and I have pointed out, the GTO would have come down the line with a wiring harness, fuel lines, exhaust pipes, etc. ready to match up with a Pontiac block in Pontiac specific locations. All GTOs had the Ram Air intake set-up and I don't think the height and position of the Q jet on a Chevy intake manifold is the same as on a Pontiac so the Ram Air system would not match up with the hood. I think even the PB booster and master cylinder as well as the brake line routing were different on a Pontiac powered A body.
Bottom line, do I believe Oshawa built cars that could have been ordered with a Chevy big block in the first place with a differentChevy big block than what was supposed to be available - Yes. Do I believe they built Pontiac models that were intended to have Pontiac engines only with Chevy engines substituted at the last minute - NO.
-- Edited by Astro Jet at 18:10, 2008-02-05
4SPEED427 said
Feb 5, 2008
Astro Jet wrote:
guidematic wrote:
Bottom line, do I believe Oshawa built cars that could have been ordered with a Chevy big block in the first place with a differentChevy big block than what was supposed to be available - Yes. Do I believe they built Pontiac models that were intended to have Pontiac engines only with Chevy engines substituted at the last minute - NO.
During the 1970 production year for the GTO in Oshawa they ran out of the 400 Pontiac engines for assembly and installed 396/402 Chevys. The rumor I heard, and I emphasize RUMOR is that there were 11 or 12 built.
Anyone ever heard this one????
At least they are offering the new Challenger in orange with more 60's colours to come next year. I hope GM is smart enough to do the same thing with the new Camaro, they will need all the help they can get to move those things out the door and justify the huge investment they have made in them.
I was at a car show in 00 in Summerland and talked with a guy with a 65GTO said he was restoring a 70 goat with its orig 396 BB found it in lower mainland in 85-86. don't remember the guys name but his 65 was iris mist with 389 4 barrel 3 speed.
-- Edited by Astro Jet at 12:55, 2008-01-31
Guys, you are getting confused with Canadian built cars that were offered from the factory with Chevy engines. 64 or a 65 with 409? No problem, it's right in the Canadian factory sales brochure, it was regular line option. Same thing with a 71 Lemans with the orange Chevy 350 small block, right in the brochure, I've got all of them. A bodies were always available with the Chevy straight six, I know, my dad factory ordered a 70 Cutlass with one and I still have it!
The bottom line is, these combos were available from the factory through the normal ordering process so they had all the proper stuff to go under the hood. Also, don't forget, as crude as they may seem from today's perspective, these cars' build sheets were computer generated. They may have been using punch cards, but they were computer generated none the less. To get all the proper stuff under the hood for a BB GTO, someone would have to have replaced at least half the punch cards that made up the order for the car to get all the proper stuff to the assembly line.
That being said, show me an actual car with paperwork from George and I'll consider it. ;)
And as far as putting a chevy engine in the Lemans/GTO/T37/GT37 bodies.. they were all the same frame as the Chevelles,, It was just a matter of the frame mounts being changed out and a wire harness.. The inner fenders were the same.. battery mounted on the other side and there you were
But as far as a big block in a GTO in 70 , Never seen one and if so it would be worth quite a bit in this day, specially with the doc's.
-- Edited by Astro Jet at 18:10, 2008-02-05