Has anyone here been through an assembly line to see what kind of orchestration it takes to build a car??
Canadian Poncho said
Feb 5, 2008
Yep, I have. I worked at CAMI in Ingersoll for 7 years. Now this was the 90's but there was no way you could deviate from the norm!
Todd
4SPEED427 said
Feb 5, 2008
If you mean tours, I have toured the GP plant in Kansas City and the Lumina car assembly line in Ontario.
That is just another reason why I can't see an assembly line putting Chevy engines in on the same assembly line.
guidematic said
Feb 10, 2008
I do understand the limitations of production variances. I do believe that in 1970, just when the Americanisation of our industry was getting some speed, that some things were defineatly possible, even if they did not happen.
To place the master cylinder in a differant place due to the type of engine installed would require a differant cowl stamping, along with various other changes in bracketry and linkages. That would simply not be economically feasible since the cowl stamping is the single most expensive stamping in a car.
We have all seen Tempests with both Chevrolet and Pontiac engines. Those built for the US market would no doubt have Pontiac engines. The basic body and frame of all A-body cars is the same. So, in theory, had there not been Pontiac engines available, then it is POSSIBLE that a Chevrolet 396/402 may have been substituted. I'm not saying that it indeed did happen. A fully documented car would have to be uncovered as proof, and thus far that has not happened to my knowledge.
I cited a magazine article of some years ago from Super Chevy magazine. I would produce the article if I could get my hands on it. Trust me. But it was claimed in the article, that this car was indeed a documented LS-6/L-89 car. Many theories have come to surface, even though Tonawanda records where all these engines were produced, do not show such an engine being built. The reasons for such a car's existance may never be fully known.
Also during a brief tenure right after high school, I worked at a Pontiac/Buick/Cadillac dealer, in 1978/79, where I saw cars come with a variety if engines installed. For example, I have seen Buicks with Buick, Pontiac and Olds engines installed. All in the same model line. What of the Trans Ams that had either Pontiac or Olds engines? And what of those 1977 Olds 88's that had Chevrolet engines and Olds engines. The cars that spawned the class action lawsuit against GM. Would they not require the same production variances as a theoretical Chevy powered GTO?
I am still working on how and why this happened. So far, I have theorised that it was the plane of origin and the logistics to the closest engine plants that dictated if a Buick or Pontiac 350 went into a Buick.
Today's production realities are far removed from those of 35 years ago. Lines are more or less dedicated to one type of vehicle with limited trim variations, and I mean limited. Look at the choice of colours and trims that were available on a car 35 years ago as opposed to today. And it was not unusual to produce several car lines on a single line, something that is not often seen today, although Oshawa still produces the Impala/Allure on one line.
I was simply summizing the possibilties of such a car being produced. Some odd things did happen in those years. After all, this was right in the thick of the COPO Camaro and Chevelle era. Some are documented, and some are still urban legends.
Mike
The JURY said
Apr 6, 2008
I've heard the rumor too except it was 69's with 396's. Theres an article in carsandparts magazine where Rich Gonzer, technical editor for POCI at the time stated that this occurred because of a GM strike. He goes on to say all blocks were painted purple ! But like the Beaumont Cheetah ; SHOW ME THE PICS and documentation.
73SC said
Apr 6, 2008
Wow, lots of posts here with interesting information:
Every GM Canada sales brochure says the following on the back page, this one is a 1970:
"General Motors of Canada Limited reserves the right to make changes at any time, without notice, in prices, colours, materials, equipment, specifications and models, and also to discontinue models. This right may be exercised without incurring any responsibility with regard to cars previously sold."
So what they are saying there is all the things discussed here are within their rights so therefore possible.
My 73 Oshawa Lemans is a small block 350 so no big deal on A bodies with the Chevy. LeMans with Chevy engines are quite prolific actually. As noted the 73 LeMans brochure also lists the 455 SD, there is a place in the fuse box marked air scoops which would have operated the Ram Air system that went with that engine and the owners manual from Oshawa also refers to the SD engine....never offered to the public.
As for confused badging, I know an original owner 73 Ventura Sprint with documents from Oshawa saying it is a 307, emission decal says 307 but the fender flashes say 350.
As for the 396 in a 70 Tempest body AKA GTO, Beaumonts used GTO dash and very little difference in late 60's and 70's A bodies so why wouldn't the wiring work? engine mounts, same as next car on the line, a Chevelle, Turbo 400 same. I'm another one who believes in "Never say Never" but I do like to see it with my own eyes.
Lets not forget how GM decided to go with corporate engines....the made some Oldsmobiles with Chevy 350's due to supply problems then it started when one owner had an oil change and the filter was put on for an Olds 350, oil ran out engine blew up, owner found out it was a Chevy and and sued them. That was back in 75/76.
-- Edited by 73SC at 19:06, 2008-04-06
65deluxe said
Apr 6, 2008
Jerry Titus campaigned a Firebird running a 302 Chevy in the SCCA Trans Am series back in the late 60's. SCCA rules were clear that an "X" number of the model had to be built. The arguement was that you could get a Canadian Pontiac with a Chevy motor. I recently read an interview, I wish I could recall where, but it was an interview with a Canadian Pontiac upper management man from "back in the day" and part of the interview centered on the SCCA and Trans Am racing in the late 60's. He stated that 11 or 12 of these cars were built. If so, have any turned up?
73SC said
Apr 6, 2008
65deluxe wrote:
Jerry Titus campaigned a Firebird running a 302 Chevy in the SCCA Trans Am series back in the late 60's. SCCA rules were clear that an "X" number of the model had to be built. The arguement was that you could get a Canadian Pontiac with a Chevy motor. I recently read an interview, I wish I could recall where, but it was an interview with a Canadian Pontiac upper management man from "back in the day" and part of the interview centered on the SCCA and Trans Am racing in the late 60's. He stated that 11 or 12 of these cars were built. If so, have any turned up?
We are discussing this topic at the following link:
guidematic wrote: All GTOs had the Ram Air intake set-up and I don't think the height and position of the Q jet on a Chevy intake manifold is the same as on a Pontiac so the Ram Air system would not match up with the hood. I think even the PB booster and master cylinder as well as the brake line routing were different on a Pontiac powered A body.
In the Middle 70's I raced my 70 Judge in Ontario, went by way of Nitrus.. Got a little carried away and blew up a perfect Ram Air III block,, threw a rod!! Then I was posted "I was in the military" to British Columbia.. No engine.. so I threw in a small block 350.. So I didnt have to leave my GTO behind. Only change was the battery box to the other side, Tranny and drive shaft..and cradle mounts.. I was lucky as a friend had one with the tranny out of a wrecked out Canadian Lemans Sport.. My Ram air Carb fit on the intake, and the hood closed with the Ram Air Pan intact, so stayed functional till later. When I was able to get another YZ block for her
-- Edited by the70judge at 09:36, 2008-04-07
73SC said
Apr 7, 2008
the70judge wrote:
In the Middle 70's I raced my 70 Judge in Ontario, went by way of Nitrus.. Got a little carried away and blew up a perfect Ram Air III block,, threw a rod!! Then I was posted "I was in the military" to British Columbia.. No engine.. so I threw in a small block 350.. So I didnt have to leave my GTO behind. Only change was the battery box to the other side, Tranny and drive shaft..and cradle mounts.. I was lucky as a friend had one with the tranny out of a wrecked out Canadian Lemans Sport.. My Ram air Carb fit on the intake, and the hood closed with the Ram Air Pan intact, so stayed functional till later. When I was able to get another YZ block for her
-- Edited by the70judge at 09:36, 2008-04-07
Awesome first hand account, hard to argue with this kind of evidence.
I had a boss when I was younger who's dad was a supervisor at the plant in Oshawa....he told me he ordered his car then basically walked the line watching his 66 Chevelle wagon get built and they made it as close to an SS as possible.
Astro Jet said
Apr 7, 2008
the70judge wrote:
Astro Jet wrote:
guidematic wrote: All GTOs had the Ram Air intake set-up and I don't think the height and position of the Q jet on a Chevy intake manifold is the same as on a Pontiac so the Ram Air system would not match up with the hood. I think even the PB booster and master cylinder as well as the brake line routing were different on a Pontiac powered A body.
In the Middle 70's I raced my 70 Judge in Ontario, went by way of Nitrus.. Got a little carried away and blew up a perfect Ram Air III block,, threw a rod!! Then I was posted "I was in the military" to British Columbia.. No engine.. so I threw in a small block 350.. So I didnt have to leave my GTO behind. Only change was the battery box to the other side, Tranny and drive shaft..and cradle mounts.. I was lucky as a friend had one with the tranny out of a wrecked out Canadian Lemans Sport.. My Ram air Carb fit on the intake, and the hood closed with the Ram Air Pan intact, so stayed functional till later. When I was able to get another YZ block for her
-- Edited by the70judge at 09:36, 2008-04-07
I still say I'll believe it when I see it (with paperwork).
I'm surprised you didn't have to make any changes to the wiring harness. Pontiac engines have starter on the opposite side. Also fuel pump is in a different position so that would require different lines as well. Plus when you add the mounts and the driveshaft, I doubt they would just "stop" the line while all these changes were made. If they pulled the car off the line and had it sitting somewhere off on the side where they could work on it, sure, anything is possible.
73SC said
Apr 7, 2008
I think we all know the Pontiac Pink Lady is a mix of Catalina and Bonneville parts, including a tripowered engine not avialable on the regular run of Catalinas.
I think we all know the Pontiac Pink Lady is a mix of Catalina and Bonneville parts, including a tripowered engine not avialable on the regular run of Catalinas.
-- Edited by 73SC at 10:58, 2008-04-07
Attachment is too small to read Ray, can you blow it up a little?
73SC said
Apr 7, 2008
65Camino wrote:
What about the vin? What would it be marked as? Would the block would have been assigned a serial number before putting it in the car?
Imagine it being sold to someone in the States and the first owner blows up the engine. Dealer orders a replacement and scratches their head?
We are talking possibilities here, maybe it happened. On Canadian LeMans the VINs have Chevy codes for the engines either H or K for the 350 2 or 4 bbl. in 73, US 350's are M I believe, only came as 2bbl.
73SC said
Apr 7, 2008
Astro Jet wrote: Attachment is too small to read Ray, can you blow it up a little?
"The Jury" was an option package on a LeMans that was dreamed up by Stampede Pontiac Buick in Calgary, Alberta, Canada. They sold 26 of these cars with the idea that they could offer a lower-buck car that had the performance of a Judge without being a Judge. That's where the "Jury" name came from. All where Palladium Silver with a blue interior. The each featured a fireball "The JURY" decal on a black bumblebee stripe across the rear quarter panel with a 69' Judge spoiler." (source & photo credit: www.ultimategto.com)
Ok here is a weird one.. I have a buddy with a 1970 455 HO GTO that was made in Oshawa in Feb 19 1970. Its an automatic car and for the engine code K0217CZ on it, now its not a Pontiac number. He is building up a 455 HO for it with a service replacement block but did it have a 455 in it with that number???
73SC said
Apr 8, 2008
the70judge wrote:
Ok here is a weird one.. I have a buddy with a 1970 455 HO GTO that was made in Oshawa in Feb 19 1970. Its an automatic car and for the engine code K0217CZ on it, now its not a Pontiac number. He is building up a 455 HO for it with a service replacement block but did it have a 455 in it with that number???
Is that engine number coming from the documentation? Does that look like a Chevrolet # ? I am assuming the original engine is gone so you can not get the number from it.
the70judge said
Apr 9, 2008
Yes its from the documentation out of Oshawa.. I dont know if its a Chevy number but it sure is not a Pontiac one.. The Origional engine was out of the car so no way to tell as when he got it they were racing with it, with a 455 in it but the battery was in the back.. But as far as the firewall on these 70 A bodys.. the cowls etc are the same on the Canadian Lemans GTO's as the American ones..
Every GM Canada sales brochure says the following on the back page, this one is a 1970:
"General Motors of Canada Limited reserves the right to make changes at any time, without notice, in prices, colours, materials, equipment, specifications and models, and also to discontinue models. This right may be exercised without incurring any responsibility with regard to cars previously sold."
So what they are saying there is all the things discussed here are within their rights so therefore possible.
We have been discussing small blocks in Firebirds on another thread, glad to hear they do exist:
http://canadianponcho.activeboard.com/index.spark?forumID=118110&p=3&topicID=16438361
My 73 Oshawa Lemans is a small block 350 so no big deal on A bodies with the Chevy. LeMans with Chevy engines are quite prolific actually. As noted the 73 LeMans brochure also lists the 455 SD, there is a place in the fuse box marked air scoops which would have operated the Ram Air system that went with that engine and the owners manual from Oshawa also refers to the SD engine....never offered to the public.
As for confused badging, I know an original owner 73 Ventura Sprint with documents from Oshawa saying it is a 307, emission decal says 307 but the fender flashes say 350.
As for the 396 in a 70 Tempest body AKA GTO, Beaumonts used GTO dash and very little difference in late 60's and 70's A bodies so why wouldn't the wiring work? engine mounts, same as next car on the line, a Chevelle, Turbo 400 same. I'm another one who believes in "Never say Never" but I do like to see it with my own eyes.
Lets not forget how GM decided to go with corporate engines....the made some Oldsmobiles with Chevy 350's due to supply problems then it started when one owner had an oil change and the filter was put on for an Olds 350, oil ran out engine blew up, owner found out it was a Chevy and and sued them. That was back in 75/76.
-- Edited by 73SC at 19:06, 2008-04-06
Jerry Titus campaigned a Firebird running a 302 Chevy in the SCCA Trans Am series back in the late 60's. SCCA rules were clear that an "X" number of the model had to be built. The arguement was that you could get a Canadian Pontiac with a Chevy motor. I recently read an interview, I wish I could recall where, but it was an interview with a Canadian Pontiac upper management man from "back in the day" and part of the interview centered on the SCCA and Trans Am racing in the late 60's. He stated that 11 or 12 of these cars were built.
If so, have any turned up?
http://canadianponcho.activeboard.com/forum.spark?forumID=118110&p=3&topicID=16108713
-- Edited by the70judge at 09:36, 2008-04-07
I had a boss when I was younger who's dad was a supervisor at the plant in Oshawa....he told me he ordered his car then basically walked the line watching his 66 Chevelle wagon get built and they made it as close to an SS as possible.
I still say I'll believe it when I see it (with paperwork).
I'm surprised you didn't have to make any changes to the wiring harness. Pontiac engines have starter on the opposite side. Also fuel pump is in a different position so that would require different lines as well. Plus when you add the mounts and the driveshaft, I doubt they would just "stop" the line while all these changes were made. If they pulled the car off the line and had it sitting somewhere off on the side where they could work on it, sure, anything is possible.
-- Edited by 73SC at 10:58, 2008-04-07
http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080222/FREE/852380848/1530/FREE