Canadian Poncho

Good News and ...

davelacourse said
Aug 17, 2009

Yes good news first! My good neighbor (75 years old, been an auto mechanic / body man all his life before retirement, still has LOTS of tools and materials and of course the knowledge) helped me today to finish up the fuel system (I rebuilt the carb and installed new fuel pump on the 261 straight-six) by using his gas squirter with my fittings to inject gas into the carb fuel bowl, and with a squirt down the throttle bore, the old girl fired right up

Ran a bit rough but it DID RUN and then ... m**f** same overheating problem ...

So let it cool, then pulled the 160 degree (factory spec) thermostat, which I had stovetop tested as being correct, but ...

After pulling the thermostat, the overheating problem disappeared! Not supposed to be that way, but WTF if it works ... !

And I checked the dwell (needed to reset the point gap) and timing (was right on) and set idle speed and mixture (a bit higher than factory spec but that was what it took to make it run with foot off the gas pedal) ...

So now we have (finally!) my old 56 that starts promptly (did I mention I had to have the starter rebuilt too?) and runs OK but somewhat ragged, yet good enough to get out on the road (YEE-HAW!!!) so I can get registered (need to take her to a notary public at my bank to check serial number of out-of-state car) and front end aligned and sort out the all-new chassis and brakes ...

So that is the good news!

The bad news is, we did a compression test and here are the results:

Compression, 8/17/09
Cylinder	PSI
1	120
2	110
3	120
4	110
5	125
6	30

<sigh>

So now I have a dilemma - do I choose PATH 1 or PATH 2:

PATH 1 = original plan = get the old girl running just enough to take her to the licensing place and get her properly titled & registered (NOTE: the f***ing taxing authorities are about to increase the already exorbitant fees on new titles from $250 US to at least $400 US, so delays will cost me) and to the alignment shop to get her all new front end properly aligned, and drive her just enough to make sure the all new brakes work properly and the all new chassis turns and steers and handles properly, and then go to work on replacing the tranny (got it on the shelf ready to go) and rebuilding the rear end (got all the parts ready to go) and building up the big 496 (got all the parts ready to go) and all, while the old girl sits some more,

OR ...

PATH 2 = take some more time (hey, I am retired, what I have a lot of is time, and that is one of the big reasons I got into doing what I am on this good ol' 56 Canadian Pontiac) and pull the head (easier said than done, 50+ year old bolts on the manifolds especially are not going to give up without a fight, and I am probably going to need to take off the hood and use my crane to get that heavy old head off) and buy a new valve (assuming that it is not a piston ring problem) and lap it in (my good neighbor knows how and has the supplies and even though I have never done it I am sure that I can do it) and reassemble it all ... but that will delay finishing the tranny and rear end and big 496 ...

So what do you think? PATH 1 OR PATH 2?

I am probably missing some key elements here, so please let me know ...

Dave

-- Edited by davelacourse on Monday 17th of August 2009 06:45:34 PM

4SPEED427 said
Aug 17, 2009

Personally, I would take path 2. The reason is, the 496 is a HUGE project to take on and you could easily get discouraged at how long it takes and how much it costs. I would get the 6 running better, drive it a bit, get the bugs out of it. Typically, what happens is this--- I was going to put the 496 in but one thing led to another and pretty soon the body was off the frame......... I'm not kidding, I can speak from experience as well as from hearing many many other people say the same thing.

Beaumont4008 said
Aug 17, 2009

You got that right Carl, I wish i would have driven my car with the original six. I have never driven the car since the day I bought it back in the 80's. Body of the frame since early 90's.

Did you do a wet a dry test to see if rings or valves ? If you just did a dry test now put some oil in each cylinder and test again. If you get a big increase in compression its your rings if very little valves.

67Poncho said
Aug 17, 2009

I would pull the valve cover first to inspect the valve train while cranking with the ignition system disabled. I have had some that the valve was a little stuck and it bent the push rod....... Freed the valve, got another push rod and away we go. Also may have a bad cam or collapsed lifter.

Make sure the travel is the same across the board..... If that is good, then go ahead with the wet test as Beaumont4008 suggested.............. Hope you find it right away!!!!

2drpost said
Aug 17, 2009

i would get her inspected and properly registered first dave.
do as ian suggested, a dry and wet compression test. repairing a burnt valve isn't too difficult, time and wallet wise. wink

73SC said
Aug 17, 2009

A car you can drive is a lot more fun than one you can't. I choose Path #1.

eeluddy said
Aug 17, 2009

Get it out & drive it Dave. Nothing more depressing to me than having a non- runner sittin around. I know, I have at least one all the time!

unclebernie said
Aug 17, 2009

I would agree with path #1. Put a few miles on it, then after you have the initial enjoyment you can at least say you drove it before you tore it apart. Besides does the Government really need that extra $150???? Get it all legal, then make your final decision. Just my 2 cents.......John

gparis7 said
Aug 17, 2009

I'd do path 2, that way you can continue to drive it until you are ready for the big swap. I had a stuck valve in my 261 62 Parisienne, and decided to replace it with a 64 283 I pulled from a running, driving 64 Parisienne rust bucket. Even with this easy swap, one thing led to another, and the car has been off the road for over three years. But now it's almost road ready - new paint and all.

lennox said
Aug 17, 2009

Drive it and have fun. Set a time in the future to go for the engine swap but at least drive it and have some fum!!!

davelacourse said
Aug 18, 2009

67Poncho wrote:

I would pull the valve cover first to inspect the valve train while cranking with the ignition system disabled. I have had some that the valve was a little stuck and it bent the push rod....... Freed the valve, got another push rod and away we go. Also may have a bad cam or collapsed lifter.

Beaumont4008 wrote:

Did you do a wet a dry test to see if rings or valves ? If you just did a dry test now put some oil in each cylinder and test again. If you get a big increase in compression its your rings if very little valves.

Thanks guys, that is what I will do next. Gotta finish the diagnosis before deciding on the fix, eh?

And I will limp to the licensing place and back real soon, save another bite of the taxman I hope.

Thanks to all for your great ideas and insights.

More to come ...

Dave

59stratochiefwagon said
Aug 18, 2009

I would get the car in your name and on the road as you never know what laws/ tax grabs they can add on. Here in ONT they can ask for an appraisal and tax you on that amount, so if you wait until it is updated and a higher appraised value you pay more tax, Henry.

67HEAVEN said
Aug 18, 2009

59stratochiefwagon wrote:

I would get the car in your name and on the road as you never know what laws/ tax grabs they can add on. Here in ONT they can ask for an appraisal and tax you on that amount, so if you wait until it is updated and a higher appraised value you pay more tax, Henry.

Good advice.

davelacourse said
Aug 19, 2009

Thanks for all the info, I checked w/ valve cover off and all the valve train is good, no bad rockers or push rods. I also did wet (squirted lots of oil in the cylinder) compression test on #6 and it was only a few pounds better. So that narrows it down to bad valve (probably burnt exhaust).

First, I am going to finish up the steering column, make sure the brakes work, and run on 5 cylinders to get it licensed. Not pretty, but it will get that done, hopefully one small step ahead of the tax man.

Then I am going to fix the bad valve, so the car can be driven anywhere, and enjoy it a bit, while building the 496. Depending on weather, I will also replace the tranny and shifter, and rebuild the rear end with new 4.11 Posi (if weather is nice, I'll drive the car - if too hot outside, then do the drive train work).

We still have a month and a half of hot hot summer here (until end of September) so that is when cruising is bad and wrenching is good (thanks to A/C in garage). Most likely the 496 install will be next summer. Opposite of how 'tis done in Canada, eh?

I bought a cheap ($50 US) video camera and I will see if I can chirp those fat rear tires with that old straight six, if so, I'll have a buddy record it and post it here

Thanks again,
Dave

Elroy said
Aug 19, 2009

eh waddya mean in Canada you say ?? Out west here we could just dream about needing AC in our garage, that would mean we have sun and hot weather..... NOT !!! Sounds like you have a great plan to get that baby running, great ideas there Dave ! Looking forward to that video!

Ghost Post said
Aug 19, 2009

So w/ the valve cover off inspection, all appears as both valves of the bad cyl. are getting full lift as if the cam lobes are Ok?. Even though you'll have to pull the head to fix either, if your compression tester is the thread in type w/ removable ends, an old trick I used to do was thread the end into the plug hole and apply a regulated low flow of compressed air to the bad cyl. listening at the tailpipe and carb for the hiss to indicate which valve was the bad one..

davelacourse said
Aug 19, 2009

Ghost Post wrote:

So w/ the valve cover off inspection, all appears as both valves of the bad cyl. are getting full lift as if the cam lobes are Ok?.

Even though you'll have to pull the head to fix either, if your compression tester is the thread in type w/ removable ends, an old trick I used to do was thread the end into the plug hole and apply a regulated low flow of compressed air to the bad cyl. listening at the tailpipe and carb for the hiss to indicate which valve was the bad one..

Yep, appears as both valves of the bad cyl. are getting full lift as if the cam lobes are OK and no bad pushrod.

My compression tester is the thread in type but no quick disconnect on either end, it would be a good idea to add one since it is a PITA to thread it into number 5 (battery tray and distributor conspire to make access tough) and being able to easily disconnect the gauge from the rest of the unit would make it easier. Then I could use your cool trick w/ the air compressor to figure out in advance which valve is the bad one.

But as you said, I gotta pull the head anyway, so I'll let it be a surprise

... if I were a betting man I'd guess it's exhaust, burnt.

Thanks,
Dave

59stratochiefwagon said
Aug 20, 2009

I made different leakdown testers using old sparkplugs and tapping a 1/4" pipe thread in it and then a short hose and quick coupler, Henry.

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