Hey guys I wonder if anyone knows the scoop on steering upgrades?
I have limited knowledge
First off my car is power steering and it works fine!
I just want to learn about upgrades
I have heard you can put Camaro guts in our boxes
I have heard about a 605
I dont know what our cars have? An 800????
Can someone take me to school on steering upgrades for our cars?
Or direct me to a good write up
thanks everyone!
Greg
4SPEED427 said
Feb 23, 2018
Our cars have an 800. If you read up there's some real nice 800 boxes that are "faster" and almost a bolt in. They come from Monte Carlo SS's in the 80's, Grand National and one I have no experience with but guys talk about lots is the one from Jeeps.
I was thinking at one time changing my box out too. Then I tried going with more positive caster and bingo the old box has road feel and the car handles like it should.
cdnpont said
Feb 23, 2018
I put a 12.7:1 AGR Box in my 67. Direct bolt in. Uses the stock rag, pitman, pump and lines. Easy conversion, done in a day.
One of the best improvements I've made to the Grande so far. Way safer, far better control and still have the ability to "one hand" it lock to lock when stopped.
The only minor shortcoming is that the turning circle is just slightly reduced, but not enough to become an issue.
Combined with a little more caster, it's a new car.
I like the box you installed Mark, that seems like a great option!
All this info has got me thinking...
I believe my stock box is 20-1
If my car was a factory f-41 what upgrades would be done to the steering box?
Or what if it was built with a police package??
BTW Mark I think in the past you have said the rear sway bar was the best bang for
your buck upgrade! Now you say its the steering box!
make up your mind!!
Just kidding Im sure the two upgrades compliment each other nicely!
cdnpont said
Feb 24, 2018
Greg, be aware that this much of a change in ratio REALLY changes the feel of the steering. In that it will feel significantly stiffer compared to the old box. They'll be no more babyfinger parking the car. But the result is that you actually get some facsimile of on center feel, unlike stock. There is no more, or little of that old constant sawing back and forth to keep it centered when heading down a straight highway at speed. In my case, the 12.7:1 is a good thing. When I really get on it and she begins to drift, it's much easier to correct quickly and helps reduce butt clench.
Johns suggestion of more caster is an excellent one, and really key in our case. With modern tires, it's a known fact in the B body circles that the original caster numbers are simply out to lunch.
And it's really a smart suggestion to actually try a much more aggressive caster number before moving forward with a new box. You'll be surprised at how much of an improvement can be found. It won't be close ratio, but at least you can keep that original finger steering while achieving slightly better on center. Essentially the car will center itself much better on the road. Try it first, and if you need more, there is always a new or rebuilt close ratio box.
Here's a screenshot I took years back of a what was thought to be improved alignment numbers, at least in caster. so you can see how much more people are going for.
From the top Caster, Camber, Toe. I think stock alignment fell usually in the range of +1/4 to +1 3/4 Caster and -1/4 to +3/4 Camber. Toe in could be from 1/8 to 7/16.
I know there are alignment guru's here who could chime in with more and much better info on the above..
In closing, the reason I went for the AGR box was it was a quick and easy remanufactured solution. It eliminated the need for junkyard treks, and then the process of having the box pro rebuilt (this is one thing I would not attempt at home). Another reason was the AGR box uses the original and not metric line fittings. Not a big deal to adapt, but just one part of the big picture regardless. Cheers.
And yes...as an add on, I think the rear bar is still the best bang for the buck for improving feel!
I know in at least 69, the box was what was considered to be a variable ratio, in that on center was a closer ratio (stiffer), moving to a wider number (easier) as you moved out to lock. But I couldn't notice any difference in feel.
Not sure what 67 offered with F41.
SGS Welding said
Feb 24, 2018
Thanks Mark for your information
I always learn plenty from your posts
As far as the camber adjustment suggestions I
copied some of your numbers from an older post
and asked /told the alignment guy to follow the added camber
numbers and he agreed.
new bushings ,springs ,big bar up front ,rear bar
new 14 inch bf Goodrich tires, and an alignment with your suggestions
regarding caster, man I tell you NIGHT and DAY difference!
Now ...... do I upgrade to that cool box you are running??
Im seriously thinking about it!
cdnpont said
Feb 24, 2018
I ordered my box from Summit, the 492117. There is an option for a box with a billet top and end cap, #292117, about $75 more, but the same internally. Not worth the extra cost I figured.
They come with a natural finish. I removed the rust inhibitor with brake cleaner and painted mine black.
Used a large air impact driver to remove/replace the big nut. The pitman arm took some effort to remove with a dedicated puller. Spent some time to ensure it went back on properly centered. The drag link joint came out of the arm easily with a tie rod puller.
When re-installing the lines, there is a good chance the HP feedline might leak at the box, as the old tired inverted flair on the end of the tube might not like the contour of the new box taper. I was able to just super tighten it to stop a small drip. But this would have been a good time to replace the old pressure line. I eventually went with braided lines feed and return with high pressure fittings when I did the BB.
Don't forget the little column ground wire (for the horn) when you re-install the rag joint to the column flange. I missed mine. No horn.
When you get it all buttoned up. Fill the PS pump reservoir with fluid, raise the front wheels off the ground then engine off, turn the wheel lock to lock about 20 times. This will expel air from the lines, box and pump. Do not start the engine until the level in the pump settles in. You will have to replenish it a few times. Starting with air in the system can possibly damage the pump and box.
65wagon said
Feb 24, 2018
i was doing parking lot solo long before I got into the Pontiacs, alignment was critical to zipping around in top time against hipo mini coopers and lotuses, good luck with a corvette or Camaro way to big and heavy I used to run a massive toe out on my rear heavy forward caster and lots of positive caster, not that this is recommend for the street. when I got into the Pontiacs I couldn't deal with the crappy GM handling so I used some of the auto solo settings , assuming the front end is solid, urethane bushings etc , I ran 275 15 pirelis and stock box, l ran as much caster angle as possible, as little toe and zero camber. I have driven the fast ratio modern boxes and im not sure if I want to try one yet , I have a very week pinky. with the new settings the big poncho would rumble down the highway straight as a arrow at stupid speed, it just wouldn't stop which is a whole different problem.
cdnpont said
Feb 24, 2018
65wagon wrote:
i was doing parking lot solo long before I got into the Pontiacs, alignment was critical to zipping around in top time against hipo mini coopers and lotuses, good luck with a corvette or Camaro way to big and heavy I used to run a massive toe out on my rear heavy forward caster and lots of positive caster, not that this is recommend for the street. when I got into the Pontiacs I couldn't deal with the crappy GM handling so I used some of the auto solo settings , assuming the front end is solid, urethane bushings etc , I ran 275 15 pirelis and stock box, l ran as much caster angle as possible, as little toe and zero camber. I have driven the fast ratio modern boxes and im not sure if I want to try one yet , I have a very week pinky. with the new settings the big poncho would rumble down the highway straight as a arrow at stupid speed, it just wouldn't stop which is a whole different problem.
Another good testimonial about how much a more positive caster angle can benefit. I've found adding too much to this angle will actually bring diminishing returns. I have to admit, I never had my 67 on the rack for a proper alignment. I did it all with a tape measure and an eyeball. When I first installed the 12:1 box along with the GW upper and lower arms and strut rods, I dialed in a ton of caster. I made both sides equal. And adjusted in about a 1/4" toe in. Camber was with a straightedge and a inclinometer. When I took the car out it basically wouldn't turn a corner. Turning both strut rods back a bit made it better, and one equal more shortening of the rods made it feel just about perfect. So there is a sweet spot for the street. I should really get it on a rack, but the tires are wearing fine and even so far.
65wagon said
Feb 24, 2018
don't go nuts on caster a few degrees past vertical is good , I have a toe in minor toe in dialed in, camber I always set at zero, this also depends if you are running urethane through out. I made a jig to align my racer on my drive way, race on Sunday drive to work on Monday, that is if nothing blew up. ill dig around for my specs I did keep them .
Hey guys I wonder if anyone knows the scoop on steering upgrades?
I have limited knowledge
First off my car is power steering and it works fine!
I just want to learn about upgrades
I have heard you can put Camaro guts in our boxes
I have heard about a 605
I dont know what our cars have? An 800????
Can someone take me to school on steering upgrades for our cars?
Or direct me to a good write up
thanks everyone!
Greg
http://www.hotrod.com/articles/ccrp-0901-gm-steering-box-upgrade/
I put a 12.7:1 AGR Box in my 67. Direct bolt in. Uses the stock rag, pitman, pump and lines. Easy conversion, done in a day.
One of the best improvements I've made to the Grande so far. Way safer, far better control and still have the ability to "one hand" it lock to lock when stopped.
The only minor shortcoming is that the turning circle is just slightly reduced, but not enough to become an issue.
Combined with a little more caster, it's a new car.
AGR
AGR and the stock box,
Great info!
Thanks Im starting to get it now!
I like the box you installed Mark, that seems like a great option!
All this info has got me thinking...
I believe my stock box is 20-1
If my car was a factory f-41 what upgrades would be done to the steering box?
Or what if it was built with a police package??
BTW Mark I think in the past you have said the rear sway bar was the best bang for
your buck upgrade! Now you say its the steering box!
make up your mind!!
Just kidding Im sure the two upgrades compliment each other nicely!
Greg, be aware that this much of a change in ratio REALLY changes the feel of the steering. In that it will feel significantly stiffer compared to the old box. They'll be no more babyfinger parking the car. But the result is that you actually get some facsimile of on center feel, unlike stock. There is no more, or little of that old constant sawing back and forth to keep it centered when heading down a straight highway at speed. In my case, the 12.7:1 is a good thing. When I really get on it and she begins to drift, it's much easier to correct quickly and helps reduce butt clench.
Johns suggestion of more caster is an excellent one, and really key in our case. With modern tires, it's a known fact in the B body circles that the original caster numbers are simply out to lunch.
And it's really a smart suggestion to actually try a much more aggressive caster number before moving forward with a new box. You'll be surprised at how much of an improvement can be found. It won't be close ratio, but at least you can keep that original finger steering while achieving slightly better on center. Essentially the car will center itself much better on the road. Try it first, and if you need more, there is always a new or rebuilt close ratio box.
Here's a screenshot I took years back of a what was thought to be improved alignment numbers, at least in caster. so you can see how much more people are going for.
From the top Caster, Camber, Toe. I think stock alignment fell usually in the range of +1/4 to +1 3/4 Caster and -1/4 to +3/4 Camber. Toe in could be from 1/8 to 7/16.
I know there are alignment guru's here who could chime in with more and much better info on the above..
In closing, the reason I went for the AGR box was it was a quick and easy remanufactured solution. It eliminated the need for junkyard treks, and then the process of having the box pro rebuilt (this is one thing I would not attempt at home). Another reason was the AGR box uses the original and not metric line fittings. Not a big deal to adapt, but just one part of the big picture regardless. Cheers.
And yes...as an add on, I think the rear bar is still the best bang for the buck for improving feel!
I know in at least 69, the box was what was considered to be a variable ratio, in that on center was a closer ratio (stiffer), moving to a wider number (easier) as you moved out to lock. But I couldn't notice any difference in feel.
Not sure what 67 offered with F41.
Thanks Mark for your information
I always learn plenty from your posts
As far as the camber adjustment suggestions I
copied some of your numbers from an older post
and asked /told the alignment guy to follow the added camber
numbers and he agreed.
new bushings ,springs ,big bar up front ,rear bar
new 14 inch bf Goodrich tires, and an alignment with your suggestions
regarding caster, man I tell you NIGHT and DAY difference!
Now ...... do I upgrade to that cool box you are running??
Im seriously thinking about it!
I ordered my box from Summit, the 492117. There is an option for a box with a billet top and end cap, #292117, about $75 more, but the same internally. Not worth the extra cost I figured.
They come with a natural finish. I removed the rust inhibitor with brake cleaner and painted mine black.
Used a large air impact driver to remove/replace the big nut. The pitman arm took some effort to remove with a dedicated puller. Spent some time to ensure it went back on properly centered. The drag link joint came out of the arm easily with a tie rod puller.
When re-installing the lines, there is a good chance the HP feedline might leak at the box, as the old tired inverted flair on the end of the tube might not like the contour of the new box taper. I was able to just super tighten it to stop a small drip. But this would have been a good time to replace the old pressure line. I eventually went with braided lines feed and return with high pressure fittings when I did the BB.
Don't forget the little column ground wire (for the horn) when you re-install the rag joint to the column flange. I missed mine. No horn.
When you get it all buttoned up. Fill the PS pump reservoir with fluid, raise the front wheels off the ground then engine off, turn the wheel lock to lock about 20 times. This will expel air from the lines, box and pump. Do not start the engine until the level in the pump settles in. You will have to replenish it a few times. Starting with air in the system can possibly damage the pump and box.
i was doing parking lot solo long before I got into the Pontiacs, alignment was critical to zipping around in top time against hipo mini coopers and lotuses, good luck with a corvette or Camaro way to big and heavy I used to run a massive toe out on my rear heavy forward caster and lots of positive caster, not that this is recommend for the street. when I got into the Pontiacs I couldn't deal with the crappy GM handling so I used some of the auto solo settings , assuming the front end is solid, urethane bushings etc , I ran 275 15 pirelis and stock box, l ran as much caster angle as possible, as little toe and zero camber. I have driven the fast ratio modern boxes and im not sure if I want to try one yet , I have a very week pinky. with the new settings the big poncho would rumble down the highway straight as a arrow at stupid speed, it just wouldn't stop which is a whole different problem.
Another good testimonial about how much a more positive caster angle can benefit. I've found adding too much to this angle will actually bring diminishing returns. I have to admit, I never had my 67 on the rack for a proper alignment. I did it all with a tape measure and an eyeball. When I first installed the 12:1 box along with the GW upper and lower arms and strut rods, I dialed in a ton of caster. I made both sides equal. And adjusted in about a 1/4" toe in. Camber was with a straightedge and a inclinometer. When I took the car out it basically wouldn't turn a corner. Turning both strut rods back a bit made it better, and one equal more shortening of the rods made it feel just about perfect. So there is a sweet spot for the street. I should really get it on a rack, but the tires are wearing fine and even so far.
don't go nuts on caster a few degrees past vertical is good , I have a toe in minor toe in dialed in, camber I always set at zero, this also depends if you are running urethane through out. I made a jig to align my racer on my drive way, race on Sunday drive to work on Monday, that is if nothing blew up. ill dig around for my specs I did keep them .