Could be Jim Clemens out of Rockridge Florida
I know he does protect-o-plates
seventy2plus2 said
Sep 20, 2018
There's a couple guys that have been doing them for years: www.datatags.com (Colorado, likely who you talked to) www.trimtags.com (Illinois)
I'm sure both could do your Canadian tag, but may be pricey.
-- Edited by seventy2plus2 on Thursday 20th of September 2018 11:50:32 AM
MC said
Sep 20, 2018
What is the purpose of those tags? To replace lost ones?
What info is on the cowl tag?
Just curious as I dabble in the Mopar side of the hobby and there has been quite a bit of discussion over these reproduction tags - often when somebody changes the tag to reflect changes they made to their car which affects the value.
NOS said
Sep 20, 2018
I thought it was illegal to remove the trim tag ?? maybe i'm wrong ??
Dale @ NOS
ABC123 said
Sep 20, 2018
My car came with the tag missing.
I bought it from the estate of the original owner.
I have no reason not to believe them, when they told me that the tag, went in her coffin as one of the symbols of what she loved.
She won this car in 1969 and was very proud of that.
Almost every time that hood opens, I am reminded of the missing tag.
A recreation tag would always be a recreation and presented as such.
The tag isn't bad.
It's how you use it.
MC said
Sep 20, 2018
I just noticed that the Colorado site has this statement, so they must be aware of the issues that can be involved:
Real cars only need apply! We will not help with hallucinations or dreams!
Proof of ownership, pedigree check, required in some cases..
1966-Grande-paris said
Sep 20, 2018
I dont think the cowl tags should be touched, to me its a red flag. Basically you can take an average car, do mods to it, change the tag, and now you have a car that could be passed off as an actual rare car, with increased value. Am I missing something here?
-- Edited by 1966-Grande-paris on Thursday 20th of September 2018 04:19:07 PM
MC said
Sep 20, 2018
That's what happens with fender tags on Mopars - people do a colour change to a more desirable colour, and add rare/desirable options - then have a fender tag made up to make it look like the car was originally equipped that way and drive up the value. Luckily, with '66 and later Mopars, the engine is coded in the VIN (the fifth digit), so it's not as easy to create a 440 sixpack car from a 318 car, for example, unless you change the VIN, which is explicitly illegal. Still, misrepresenting a car for the purpose of increasing its value is at least unethical, and could be considered fraudulent in many cases.
I certainly can see replacing a lost one with the same information as your car already had, though. As long as proper documentation is provided, there should be no issues. I would like to think this is the spirit in which the idea for replication of tags was created.
Oshawa65SS said
Sep 20, 2018
Fakes are easily dispelled on Canadian Chevrolets like mine because the info pertinent to the tag was kept on record and is available from GM Canada unlike with US builds
My mustang couldn't turn into a 428 Super Cobra Jet either because any buyer wants the Marti report and Kevin has exclusive license to the Ford production database
4SPEED427 said
Sep 20, 2018
Oshawa65SS wrote:
Fakes are easily dispelled on Canadian Chevrolets like mine because the info pertinent to the tag was kept on record and is available from GM Canada unlike with US builds
My mustang couldn't turn into a 428 Super Cobra Jet either because any buyer wants the Marti report and Kevin has exclusive license to the Ford production database
Exactly, GM Vintage trumps whatever tags anyone puts on the firewall of a Canadian GM product.
I'm thinking my car might become a "factory" 427 4 speed according to the cowl tag (if I buy a repro, that is). However, it's easily documented as a 3 on the tree 283 and the repro tag would only remain on the car as long as I own it, it would not be sold like that.
Besides, there will be many ways to spot it as a fake, even if I put the tag on it.
So far, just thinking out loud, I haven't ordered a tag, just asked a couple of vendors who make them what it would cost. At $268 US shipped it may not happen right away...
MC said
Sep 21, 2018
Just to be clear, I'm not questioning your ethics, Carl. I know you are just wanting to have a little fun with your conversion.
I was just throwing the idea out there as it is a real thing that happens in the hobby. A buyer has to be aware when they are buying anything, as fake documentation can be made relatively easily by anybody with a computer and a bit of time. I've even heard of people "aging" the paper that the documentation is printed on in order to deceive. They are preying on the person who wants to get into the hobby but doesn't know much about it or how to do their own research.
Rebodying is another hotly debated topic that I've seen come up from time to time. Caveat Emptor.
DonSSDD said
Sep 21, 2018
What year did trim tags show motors and trannies? I'm only up to 63's, other than model numbers showing body style, colours, and V8 or 6, plus some of the options, they don't show what V8 it had or what tranny it had when built. For many years, the trim tag on Chevies built in the US was always a V8 code only, even on 6's.
Pontiacanada said
Sep 21, 2018
Save your money.
4SPEED427 said
Sep 21, 2018
The beauty of doing this is that nobody can fake a Canadian GM product because GM Vintage can bust anyone who does it with one simple phone call to them.
Don, I'm not sure what year they started it but for sure in 1966 they had options on the tag. I don't even know if the engine made it onto the tag but the M20 did for sure.
Any of you guys with a big block 66 Pontiac, either 396 or 427 can answer this. Does your engine option code show up on your cowl tag?
Fake68 said
Sep 21, 2018
What... You don't think guys aren't faking GM Canada docs too ??
If you're looking at a high dollar car you must do your homework. I was recently involved in de-bunking a #'s LS-6 Chevelle. Current owner had no idea and didn't care but had a long lineup of buyers. Internet searches can turn up a lot of surprising history.
4SPEED427 said
Sep 21, 2018
Yes, I am sure guys are making fake documents. But, although they can fake the docs it's hard to dispute the results from a call to George at GM Vintage!
Maybe that will be the next scam, they get his phone number hacked and start "documenting" cars for callers!
I know at least one altered cowl tag on a Canadian car already.... I won't be the first to do it!
MC said
Sep 21, 2018
One thing that occurs to me, though, is that when somebody is looking at buying a car it's often a quick deal - offer to buy, acceptance of the offer, pay for it, pick it up and off you go. I'm wondering how many people would want to take the time to confirm with GM historical or be would be able to get the docs back before the deal goes sour and the seller sells to the next guy in line.
Also, how many people are aware of the service? I know I hadn't heard of it before I started reading this forum.
I'm thinking in many cases they would buy the car based on the 'documentation' provided by the seller, and then find out after the fact that it's fake. The problem that this brings about is that legal proceedings are expensive and time consuming, with no guarantee of success or recouping lost money - so once the new owner has invested heavily in the vehicle they may not have the resources or willingness to follow up legally. I think this increases the temptation to perpetuate the myth and continuing to pass the vehicle off as real to avoid losing a bundle when it's sold. Or, maybe the person never does the research and the car passes through a number of buyers without being discovered - after it's gone through a few hands the paper trail can be very hard to dig up.
The case of the 2 Vettes with identical VINs that was posted here recently comes to mind, which was helped along by government agencies who didn't share information in past times.
But, as mentioned - buyer beware. I know for a fact that Carl is one of the most honest, well-meaning individuals you will ever find within the hobby and would never misrepresent his car, but again just bringing up the point for discussion. I do think the discussion is an important one so that everybody can be aware of what could happen in purchasing a vehicle. Lots of would-be scammers out there.
CdnGMfan said
Sep 21, 2018
Good points, MC. Still it is a unique situation in Canada, where that style of tag corresponds to cars from a time period where they can be verified by GM. Tags do get damaged or lost during engine swaps, sandblasting etc. AFAIK only Oklahoma has a trim tag law.
As someone who is always curious about original trim tags, it complicates things because there can potentially be non-original tags. Only certain options, not all, appear on the tags and that is something I yearn to understand better.
4SPEED427 said
Sep 21, 2018
I've told this story before about my Grand National but there may be some newbies who haven't heard it.
In 1991 I bought a beautiful 87 GN, 18,975 km on it. One issue, it was T-boned by a city transit bus and written off.
In those days, Manitoba kept zero records of writeoffs. I bought the car and fixed it and drove it sparingly from 1992 for 8 years. In 1995 Manitoba started a new system and any vehicles written off were documented and the paperwork was "branded" for the life of the vehicle until it was scrapped for good.
The car was beautiful. I knew the day would come when we would sell it and I knew there would be issues. I knew the car was a write off, I told anyone who cared it had been a write off but the paperwork didn't reflect any issues because the accident occurred before the car was "branded". We have government insurance in Manitoba. I called them, told them the deal and told them I wanted them to brand the title for the car because of its desirability/collectability but they refused. I was very persistent telling them there would be a fraudulent transaction involving that car, guaranteed. No dice, they refused.
In 2000, at about 40,000 km I traded it to a small used car lot in Winnipeg. You can guess what happened next. I started getting calls because the Grand National community is tight knit. The car was sold through an auction, NO disclosure by the dealer I traded it to...... People recognized the car because it had a couple of somewhat unique features.
I had at least 4 different calls asking me about the details. Finally, someone did buy it with full knowledge and last I heard it was in Calgary. If anyone out there sees an 87 GN with the last 3 of the VIN being 321 I'd love to know how it's doing.
And that is why if I do this tag, I will destroy it if the car ever leaves my possession. If it's not my car any more, I'm not fielding all kinds of calls with questions about it and not going to be part of an attempt to defraud someone.
4SPEED427 said
Sep 21, 2018
MC wrote:
One thing that occurs to me, though, is that when somebody is looking at buying a car it's often a quick deal - offer to buy, acceptance of the offer, pay for it, pick it up and off you go. I'm wondering how many people would want to take the time to confirm with GM historical or be would be able to get the docs back before the deal goes sour and the seller sells to the next guy in line.
Also, how many people are aware of the service? I know I hadn't heard of it before I started reading this forum.
I'm thinking in many cases they would buy the car based on the 'documentation' provided by the seller, and then find out after the fact that it's fake. The problem that this brings about is that legal proceedings are expensive and time consuming, with no guarantee of success or recouping lost money - so once the new owner has invested heavily in the vehicle they may not have the resources or willingness to follow up legally. I think this increases the temptation to perpetuate the myth and continuing to pass the vehicle off as real to avoid losing a bundle when it's sold. Or, maybe the person never does the research and the car passes through a number of buyers without being discovered - after it's gone through a few hands the paper trail can be very hard to dig up.
The case of the 2 Vettes with identical VINs that was posted here recently comes to mind, which was helped along by government agencies who didn't share information in past times.
But, as mentioned - buyer beware. I do think the discussion is an important one so that everybody can be aware of what could happen in purchasing a vehicle. Lots of would-be scammers out there.
My one thought is that if someone would ever buy a valuable Canadian GM vehicle, they would call Vintage regardless of what is put in their face by the seller. If a guy is spending $20,000-$40,000 or maybe more on a Canadian GM product, what's another 100 bucks for peace of mind?
A friend of mine did purchase what appeared to be a high dollar car, bought it sight unseen and got burned real bad. Worst part is, I wanted to check it out for him because he didn't have time to and it would likely have cost him over $1500 for my expenses to do it once we factored in flights, gas, food, car rental, lost income from missing work etc.
I checked out a similar car for him a few years prior to that in the US. That cost him about $500 but it saved him from buying a high dollar car that had some major collision damage (undisclosed) repaired.
ive looked but don't think that they exist, my have to be a special order thing
$225 US though, plus $43 US to ship it USPS.
fantastic , another piece found
I know he does protect-o-plates
There's a couple guys that have been doing them for years:
www.datatags.com (Colorado, likely who you talked to)
www.trimtags.com (Illinois)
I'm sure both could do your Canadian tag, but may be pricey.
-- Edited by seventy2plus2 on Thursday 20th of September 2018 11:50:32 AM
What is the purpose of those tags? To replace lost ones?
What info is on the cowl tag?
Just curious as I dabble in the Mopar side of the hobby and there has been quite a bit of discussion over these reproduction tags - often when somebody changes the tag to reflect changes they made to their car which affects the value.
I thought it was illegal to remove the trim tag ?? maybe i'm wrong ??
Dale @ NOS
I bought it from the estate of the original owner.
I have no reason not to believe them, when they told me that the tag, went in her coffin as one of the symbols of what she loved.
She won this car in 1969 and was very proud of that.
Almost every time that hood opens, I am reminded of the missing tag.
A recreation tag would always be a recreation and presented as such.
The tag isn't bad.
It's how you use it.
I just noticed that the Colorado site has this statement, so they must be aware of the issues that can be involved:
Real cars only need apply!
We will not help with hallucinations or dreams!
Proof of ownership, pedigree check, required in some cases..
I dont think the cowl tags should be touched, to me its a red flag. Basically you can take an average car, do mods to it, change the tag, and now you have a car that could be passed off as an actual rare car, with increased value. Am I missing something here?
-- Edited by 1966-Grande-paris on Thursday 20th of September 2018 04:19:07 PM
That's what happens with fender tags on Mopars - people do a colour change to a more desirable colour, and add rare/desirable options - then have a fender tag made up to make it look like the car was originally equipped that way and drive up the value. Luckily, with '66 and later Mopars, the engine is coded in the VIN (the fifth digit), so it's not as easy to create a 440 sixpack car from a 318 car, for example, unless you change the VIN, which is explicitly illegal. Still, misrepresenting a car for the purpose of increasing its value is at least unethical, and could be considered fraudulent in many cases.
I certainly can see replacing a lost one with the same information as your car already had, though. As long as proper documentation is provided, there should be no issues. I would like to think this is the spirit in which the idea for replication of tags was created.
My mustang couldn't turn into a 428 Super Cobra Jet either because any buyer wants the Marti report and Kevin has exclusive license to the Ford production database
Exactly, GM Vintage trumps whatever tags anyone puts on the firewall of a Canadian GM product.
I'm thinking my car might become a "factory" 427 4 speed according to the cowl tag (if I buy a repro, that is). However, it's easily documented as a 3 on the tree 283 and the repro tag would only remain on the car as long as I own it, it would not be sold like that.
Besides, there will be many ways to spot it as a fake, even if I put the tag on it.
So far, just thinking out loud, I haven't ordered a tag, just asked a couple of vendors who make them what it would cost. At $268 US shipped it may not happen right away...
Just to be clear, I'm not questioning your ethics, Carl. I know you are just wanting to have a little fun with your conversion.
I was just throwing the idea out there as it is a real thing that happens in the hobby. A buyer has to be aware when they are buying anything, as fake documentation can be made relatively easily by anybody with a computer and a bit of time. I've even heard of people "aging" the paper that the documentation is printed on in order to deceive. They are preying on the person who wants to get into the hobby but doesn't know much about it or how to do their own research.
Rebodying is another hotly debated topic that I've seen come up from time to time. Caveat Emptor.
Save your money.
Don, I'm not sure what year they started it but for sure in 1966 they had options on the tag. I don't even know if the engine made it onto the tag but the M20 did for sure.
Any of you guys with a big block 66 Pontiac, either 396 or 427 can answer this. Does your engine option code show up on your cowl tag?
If you're looking at a high dollar car you must do your homework. I was recently involved in de-bunking a #'s LS-6 Chevelle. Current owner had no idea and didn't care but had a long lineup of buyers. Internet searches can turn up a lot of surprising history.
Maybe that will be the next scam, they get his phone number hacked and start "documenting" cars for callers!
I know at least one altered cowl tag on a Canadian car already.... I won't be the first to do it!
One thing that occurs to me, though, is that when somebody is looking at buying a car it's often a quick deal - offer to buy, acceptance of the offer, pay for it, pick it up and off you go. I'm wondering how many people would want to take the time to confirm with GM historical or be would be able to get the docs back before the deal goes sour and the seller sells to the next guy in line.
Also, how many people are aware of the service? I know I hadn't heard of it before I started reading this forum.
I'm thinking in many cases they would buy the car based on the 'documentation' provided by the seller, and then find out after the fact that it's fake. The problem that this brings about is that legal proceedings are expensive and time consuming, with no guarantee of success or recouping lost money - so once the new owner has invested heavily in the vehicle they may not have the resources or willingness to follow up legally. I think this increases the temptation to perpetuate the myth and continuing to pass the vehicle off as real to avoid losing a bundle when it's sold. Or, maybe the person never does the research and the car passes through a number of buyers without being discovered - after it's gone through a few hands the paper trail can be very hard to dig up.
The case of the 2 Vettes with identical VINs that was posted here recently comes to mind, which was helped along by government agencies who didn't share information in past times.
But, as mentioned - buyer beware. I know for a fact that Carl is one of the most honest, well-meaning individuals you will ever find within the hobby and would never misrepresent his car, but again just bringing up the point for discussion. I do think the discussion is an important one so that everybody can be aware of what could happen in purchasing a vehicle. Lots of would-be scammers out there.
Good points, MC. Still it is a unique situation in Canada, where that style of tag corresponds to cars from a time period where they can be verified by GM. Tags do get damaged or lost during engine swaps, sandblasting etc. AFAIK only Oklahoma has a trim tag law.
As someone who is always curious about original trim tags, it complicates things because there can potentially be non-original tags. Only certain options, not all, appear on the tags and that is something I yearn to understand better.
In 1991 I bought a beautiful 87 GN, 18,975 km on it. One issue, it was T-boned by a city transit bus and written off.
In those days, Manitoba kept zero records of writeoffs. I bought the car and fixed it and drove it sparingly from 1992 for 8 years. In 1995 Manitoba started a new system and any vehicles written off were documented and the paperwork was "branded" for the life of the vehicle until it was scrapped for good.
The car was beautiful. I knew the day would come when we would sell it and I knew there would be issues. I knew the car was a write off, I told anyone who cared it had been a write off but the paperwork didn't reflect any issues because the accident occurred before the car was "branded". We have government insurance in Manitoba. I called them, told them the deal and told them I wanted them to brand the title for the car because of its desirability/collectability but they refused. I was very persistent telling them there would be a fraudulent transaction involving that car, guaranteed. No dice, they refused.
In 2000, at about 40,000 km I traded it to a small used car lot in Winnipeg. You can guess what happened next. I started getting calls because the Grand National community is tight knit. The car was sold through an auction, NO disclosure by the dealer I traded it to...... People recognized the car because it had a couple of somewhat unique features.
I had at least 4 different calls asking me about the details. Finally, someone did buy it with full knowledge and last I heard it was in Calgary. If anyone out there sees an 87 GN with the last 3 of the VIN being 321 I'd love to know how it's doing.
And that is why if I do this tag, I will destroy it if the car ever leaves my possession. If it's not my car any more, I'm not fielding all kinds of calls with questions about it and not going to be part of an attempt to defraud someone.
My one thought is that if someone would ever buy a valuable Canadian GM vehicle, they would call Vintage regardless of what is put in their face by the seller. If a guy is spending $20,000-$40,000 or maybe more on a Canadian GM product, what's another 100 bucks for peace of mind?
A friend of mine did purchase what appeared to be a high dollar car, bought it sight unseen and got burned real bad. Worst part is, I wanted to check it out for him because he didn't have time to and it would likely have cost him over $1500 for my expenses to do it once we factored in flights, gas, food, car rental, lost income from missing work etc.
I checked out a similar car for him a few years prior to that in the US. That cost him about $500 but it saved him from buying a high dollar car that had some major collision damage (undisclosed) repaired.