i e-mailed a guy today about a vin for a camero he had on kijiji,it read
car was rusty,already parted it out.. i have left the original vin tag(124871n573---,also the cowl tag, the ownership and the build sheet. also found the original protectoplate. (with clb as the engine code)..the car was 396(402) turbo 400, had posi, car was loaded, ...dont know if its worth anything for this stuff, make me an offer. thanks .. good for a collector or whatever you want to do with them ,protectoplate info 124871n5731--,T0416CLB, 71K73 , CGG116W, 1 1 3
and this is what he wrote back
hi. believe it or not, but for the vin tag, trim tag, protectoplate, and the ownership which is in my name i have been offered $800 so far. i think thats about the limit,dont think it will go much higher. i bought the car about 25 or 30 years ago from the original owner, who bought it with a big block so that he could tow a small utility trailer around his house. i had the car for a few years and when she started rusting out,i found another camaro that i started to switch the parts too. i never finished because got rid of both cars. thats why i still had all the identification for the car. when i had talked to the police back then, at least 25 years ago, they told me that as long as both cars were in my name and not stolen i could switch tags. i dont know if laws have changed now. i am just selling the stuff,what the person does with them is their business. i know the price sounds high but thats what its up to now. if someone has a nice big block camaro and puts these on thir car, value increases, i dont know, probably by 5 to 10 tousand dollars, i would think. there was only something like 1553 big block ss camaros made in 1971. thanks
what do you think is it worth a grand,does it make a car a car
if you had the paperwork and totally rusted out hulk, would it be the same to buy and restore with southern body? I don't know, but the camaro stuff will sell with the new bodies available.. 2cents
Apparently there's two COPO Camaro's out there with the same VIN. The car was sold new at Central Chev in London and was found a few years ago in a junkyard in Melbourn. The rear half went to the states where that owner got a title and built a "COPO". The front half also was rebuilt into a COPO! I'd be a little leary doing this. I could have bought that 427 2+2 and swapped all the tags onto my solid Laurentian. Would that make my car a legit 427 4 speed 2+2??
Every time the topic comes up, it gets a heated debate going.
As far as I know, the bottom line is that it's totally illegal to move a VIN tag from one car to another. In Manitoba where we have only government insurance on our vehicles, the salvage auction that the government runs to sell our wrecked cars had to stop removing VIN tags from written off vehicles that were deemed "not repairable". The government agency running the auction was breaking the law simply by removing the tag, never mind putting it on another vehicle as is suggested here.
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1966 Strato Chief 2 door, 427 4 speed, 45,000 original miles
1966 Grande Parisienne, 396 1 of 23 factory air cars
I replaced the body on my cj7 jeep 15 years ago because the body completely rotted to nothing, at that time i replaced it with a fiberglass one. They as in the company that i bought it from, said to take the firewall plate with the vin attached and transfer it to the new body and destroy the old body, which i did. this is probably in that grey area. everything else stayed the same. mined you eveything else on this jeep has been replace at some time or other in the last 30 years. frame, motor even the axles i don't think anything is original now. i'm just stoking the fire.
anyone heard waht is happening with customers buying the Camaro and Mustang bodies.. can you use a vin from old car or they registered as the year of completion eg. 2007 2008 2009?
Every time the topic comes up, it gets a heated debate going.
As far as I know, the bottom line is that it's totally illegal to move a VIN tag from one car to another.
Do you have any legislation you can site? The switching and selling of VIN tags has been going on as long as I have been in the collector car hobby (close to 30 years). How is it really any different from a car that has received severe firewall damage? Repairing the firewall and regrafting the VIN tag back on it makes the car a fake? Rebodying has been going on as long as there has been rust! Those new Camaro and Mustang bodies all require a VIN from an existing vehicle, after all, they are nothing more than a giant "sheet metal" repair. They were never "vehicles" in their own right that could be registered. The people who have been rebodying VW beetles having been doing this for decades; I have never heard of any of them going to jail. Personally, I know of VIN tags and accompanying documentation for GTO Judges being sold for several thousands of dollars...
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Hillar
1970 LS4 (eventually an LS5) Laurentian 2dr hdtp -and a bunch of other muscle cars...
Well, as far as I am concerned, Hillar is correct; I know what he does for a living! Unless legislative law, in Ontario, this would be the Revised Statutes of Ontario, or Case Law, established by legal confrontation, any subject is legal unless proven otherwise. There are no laws to prevent what Hillar states is a "giant sheet metal repair" and this may well be a loophole that has been overlooked. What would be the difference if a southern frame was substituted along with both front fenders, hood, trunk lid and rear quarter panels. This may well seem wrong in the view of some however the reasoning, "BECAUSE", cannot be construed as law . To state something is illegal requires the individual to quote the authority by which he/she states this, ie the legislative law or case law by which he/she speaks, not "OPINION" . If someone wishes to quote the appropriate law for this being illegal I will definately stand corrected and please note I only speak to Ontario.
I just know that when our own provincial government's insurance company is forbidden to remove any more VIN tags from junk cars because they are breaking the law by doing it, then there must be a law like that in place.
Because some unsuspecting car collector will unknowingly pay a lot of money for a rebodied car thinking it's original, I would think that would constitute fraud. He would never pay that much knowing it's not original.
I am not that type. I am just not that fussy about cars that they have to be 100% pure, but it's easy for me to understand why it would be illegal. People switch VIN tags mainly for financial gain. Even if the person who originally did it was not looking to make extra dollars by doing it, somewhere along the line someone will pay too much for the rebodied car.
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1966 Strato Chief 2 door, 427 4 speed, 45,000 original miles
1966 Grande Parisienne, 396 1 of 23 factory air cars
What do you think, about the poor guy, who replaces the floor ,trunk,sills,quarters,doors,fenders,hood,and so on on his original car.. I would rather have a southern origInal body.. Is his car still original? I was thinking of my friend ,down the street,who needs all those items,and wants to keep his car original.. He also need most of the roof, and cowell replaced...
A couple of years ago my wife was in an accident with our 1997 chev. Z71 regular cab short box pickup. This was our first new truck and we were very sorry to have the insurance company write it off. In order to get the final settlement cheque from the insurance co I had to surrender the ownership to an appraiser who took a picture of the vin tag on the truck. I inquired why this was being done. She informed me the truck would be auctioned off and if the purchaser decided to repair the truck rather than salvage it the truck would now be branded as a rebuilt truck with the Ministry of Transportation. When the ownership would be changed upon resale the truck is Branded on the ownership and the transfer package so the new owner would know the truck had once been written off. This is the governments way of protecting the purchaser. As far as buying just an ownership and vin tag to install on a clone car I do not think this is a fair and honest way of doing things unless the vendor identifies this has been done. On the other hand I do not have a problem with someone changing a complete rust free body to replace a rusted out one and using the original vin tag.Living in northern ontario it is just more economical and easier to do than repair or change every piece of sheetmetal on a body. I have been in the old car hobby for over 40 years and have met a lot of honest and considerate people but I have also encountered as many crooks , con artists and like people who are only interested in making a fast dollar and have no conscience for the bs they are telling the purchaser. At the major auctions the cars that are clones are identified as such but the ones that have body changes are not id as clones, they are id as restored or rebuilt. Al
The situation may be different in provinces like Manitoba and BC where the government provides auto insurance but even then, it may just be a policy not to remove those VIN tags, as opposed to actual legislation or regulations that may be enacted to enforce it. I completely understand why an ownership may be branded if a car is written off and then re-built, but as others have pointed out, the real issue is the intent of the person who is doing it. If they intentionally and knowingly are trying to mis-represent something as "original", under our criminal laws that can be demonstrated to be fraud, however, if a car has been "restored", it gets a little murkier. Caveat emptor still applies and it is not clear how far the seller has to go in disclosing the degree of repairs or rebodying unless he is specifically asked those questions by the buyer. If he answers truthfully and there is no deliberate attempt to hide anything, he has done nothing wrong and nothing illegal. As you can imagine, our courts have a lot higher priorities in general than insuring someone who is buying an antique "toy" is getting ripped off. I have perused the Ontario legislation quite a bit and there is nothing per se that makes switching tags illegal. As I said earlier, I know of several firms selling "restored" VW beetles to beetle fanatics. They go down to Mexico or Brazil and find a nice running example but inevitably the body and interior is beat up. They basically graft on the last version of body with an up to date interior and all the modern accessories and voila!, a "brand new" beetle, although your VIN and registration may indicate that is a '68 or something. If one knows their GM vehicles, one knows that the VIN is strategically stamped on several places throughout the vehicle and even most restorers are not going to go to all the trouble to restamp it everywhere.
-- Edited by Astro Jet at 12:57, 2008-05-23
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Hillar
1970 LS4 (eventually an LS5) Laurentian 2dr hdtp -and a bunch of other muscle cars...
I don't disagree with a re-body, especially in the case of a rare car. Better than it being shredded and never appreciated again. I don't agree with no disclosure because the serious players want something never tampered with.
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1966 Strato Chief 2 door, 427 4 speed, 45,000 original miles
1966 Grande Parisienne, 396 1 of 23 factory air cars
Its really hard to draw the fuzzy line on how much repair a car needs to be rebuilt...i.e. all new steel etc, or a new frame... i guess you could argue that the only thing worth salvaging was the vin info and rebuild from there? In the case of a restoration, the buyer should ask for information and documentation to satisfy themselves of what they are buying...
not sure if this bill C64 passed federally, as it is primarily aimed at organized crime/theft but the wording is summarized as...
"The amendment would make it an offence to wholly or partially alter, obliterate, or remove a vehicle identification number on a motor vehicle without lawful excuse and under circumstances that give rise to a reasonable inference that this was done to conceal the identity of the motor vehicle. Anyone convicted of this offence on indictment would be liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding five years. The Crown may also choose to proceed by way of summary conviction with a maximum fine of $2,000, imprisonment for six months, or both. "
so would swapping VINs lets say from a COPO that was crushed to a 6cyl camaro "conceal the identity" or is trying to misrepresent a car for financial gain a 'lawful excuse'? generally a vin swap is done to increase the value, so this may apply, although its lucrative to risk the $2k fine based on the potential reward of a vin swap...
i e-mailed a guy today about a vin for a camero he had on kijiji,it read
car was rusty,already parted it out.. i have left the original vin tag(124871n573---,also the cowl tag, the ownership and the build sheet. also found the original protectoplate. (with clb as the engine code)..the car was 396(402) turbo 400, had posi, car was loaded, ...dont know if its worth anything for this stuff, make me an offer. thanks .. good for a collector or whatever you want to do with them ,protectoplate info 124871n5731--,T0416CLB, 71K73 , CGG116W, 1 1 3
and this is what he wrote back
hi. believe it or not, but for the vin tag, trim tag, protectoplate, and the ownership which is in my name i have been offered $800 so far. i think thats about the limit,dont think it will go much higher. i bought the car about 25 or 30 years ago from the original owner, who bought it with a big block so that he could tow a small utility trailer around his house. i had the car for a few years and when she started rusting out,i found another camaro that i started to switch the parts too. i never finished because got rid of both cars. thats why i still had all the identification for the car. when i had talked to the police back then, at least 25 years ago, they told me that as long as both cars were in my name and not stolen i could switch tags. i dont know if laws have changed now. i am just selling the stuff,what the person does with them is their business. i know the price sounds high but thats what its up to now. if someone has a nice big block camaro and puts these on thir car, value increases, i dont know, probably by 5 to 10 tousand dollars, i would think. there was only something like 1553 big block ss camaros made in 1971. thanks
what do you think is it worth a grand,does it make a car a car
-- Edited by 68sd at 21:07, 2008-05-21
If this was a 1969 with 396 the tags would go for a lot more
I think an important point is, yes, the tags are worth a lot. They make the car worth more, but ONLY because the buyer either doesn't know they've been swapped, or the buyer knows they've been swapped and plans to make some dough off someone who has no knowledge of the swap.
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1966 Strato Chief 2 door, 427 4 speed, 45,000 original miles
1966 Grande Parisienne, 396 1 of 23 factory air cars
I have "less" trouble with a trim tag, but the point is still that it's deception in a sense.
I cloned a 64 GTO convert. I did my best to make sure that it was nearly impossible to tell it from a real one. That is, except for one thing. I left the VIN tag and cowl tag as the Tempest 6 cyl car it really was.
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1966 Strato Chief 2 door, 427 4 speed, 45,000 original miles
1966 Grande Parisienne, 396 1 of 23 factory air cars
Kinda like all the Corvette folk that started this "numbers matching " stuff, they run around to all the swap meets to purchase all the right castings/date codes etc... to eventually market a pieced together #'s matching car-all numbers matching ever really meant was its complete and original-not messed with-how original is it if it was pieced together from several same vintage cars ?
Big auctions disclose only what the owner discloses to them. Even if you were to disclose a restamped block or replacement body, or built from tags vehicle, the car would someday be marketed as correct by one of the future owners.
built from tags, all the sheet metal replaced except for a 1 foot square area around the tags, what is original anyway ? the never ending question ? guess this is probably why high end buyers lien toward survivor type cars, less chance of not being correct I guess.
I had a 68 SD396 that I first looked at in Barrie, was buying it for the asking price until I noticed the CE block stamp-the owner swore it was #'s matching, four more people owned that car until I bought it several years later, everyone bought the car thinking it was numbers matching and not checking it then selling it the same-when I finally sold the car potential buyers would ask is it numbers matching ? I would tell them a CE block but everything else seemed correct and they would walk away, the car was a really soild 53,000 miles documented 68 SD396 with a 1970 CE replacement block-would you rather buy a matching engine car with no floor ? or all the panels changed or ?
There's an original #'s match LS6 chevelle down this way that has been cowl cut-and we can assume that most of them high end "rust free" cars have had the same or body transplants-we've now even heard or bodymen cutting out all the stamps in the panels and butt welding to the rebodied panels.
Why is it there's so many #'s matching rust free cars available these days ? I'm not saying they are all made up but a lot of them must be, check history, call previous owners or don't pay for numbers
my 2 cents
there's money in this hobby/business anytime theres money theres crooks
