Hey all. Long time no see. I'm the dumbegg that put 4-5K worth of performance goodies on the 350 in my '58 and ended up with a turd. Well, anyways, another summer is here, and I might take another crack at getting this thing running right. My 'buddy' (who suggested I buy this combo in the first place) swears that this combo is great in a Camaro, and my car is just too heavy for it to work right. Which is great info to have after the fact. Anyway, I was wondering if anybody knew the approximate weight of one of these cars with a small block in it. I really don't think it's as heavy as he thinks it is. I guess depending on how I make out, I may be back with more silly questions...as I'm pretty much left holding the bag on this one, and it breaks my heart that after all the work, the car is just gonna sit forever.
What transmission and diff ratio are you running? That plus your tire size along with weight,as well as weight transfer under acceleration is completely different than a Camaro with the same engine. It's probably an easy change up to get you better results.
-- Edited by eeluddy on Wednesday 21st of May 2014 06:51:58 PM
It's running a TH350, 3200 stall converter, less than perfect 3:08 or so rear. I know that's not gonna help, but there's not really a lot of option for the original rear. Still, with that converter, it should at least be able to get a squeak out of the skinny-mini 215 75 14 whitewalls.
It's running a TH350, 3200 stall converter, less than perfect 3:08 or so rear. I know that's not gonna help, but there's not really a lot of option for the original rear. Still, with that converter, it should at least be able to get a squeak out of the skinny-mini 215 75 14 whitewalls.
Sounds like a good retune,check for vacuum leaks, fuel starvation, or a few other things I can't remember!
you have a decent combo,so with a fresh engine it's just details. Don't give up! I only wish I had a 58 Parisienne!
....My 58 Impala is vertually the same car. Except mine has the stock 348 tripower, 3.36 gears, cast iron PG, ps , pb , pa , 8track, 14x7 Cragars. At the vintage drags years back it was the heaviest car there, weighed in at 4400 lbs. It don't spin tires, does 78-80mph in the 1/4, 18 sec. Yours would be abit lighter with the small block and T350.
Smasher, WHERE ARE YOU LOCATED? Something is WRONG with your combo/set-up BIG TIME.
2 examples:
1978 Z28. .030 over 350, 10-1 comp. Gm '78 model year heads. Torker intake, 650 Holley, Comp 268H High energy cam, stock converter and 3.73. headers Ran 14.70's like clockwork.
1980 Z28, .030 over 350, 10-1 comp. Dart II 2.02 heads, Torker intake, 650 Holley, Comp 500-300 cam 3500 converter and 4.10's. Slick and open header 12.70's
BOTH those cars are 3800+ lbs. So weight is awash.
Question, WHERE DOES THE CONVERTER STALL AT? When in first, hold the brakes and mash the gas, converter should go to ????? Converter PRM are a "myth"! They are a given average for X amount of power at weight. More power or less weight will result in a higher stall RPM. Same with less power or more weight. Example, my "GOOD" converter stalled 84-8600 RPM behind my buddies 499 Pro Stock Hemi. BUT behind my 498 Chevy it was down to 8000. It actually SHOULD have stalled about 300 less but that was the difference in the weight difference of the 2 cars and mine is heavier.
I would contact a GOOD/RELIABLE shop that has a good rep AND chassis dyno. Have them look it over to see if there is any "issues" that can be taken care of without engine removal. IF that doesn't work, then YANK the motor and have it taken apart and reassembled. There might have been an oversight that's hiding???
Best of luck, but that set-up should spin those tires pretty good and be a "peppy" running car. I would say even mid 13's!!!!
Carl, didn't PONTIAX already post that these we SUB 3500 lbs cars? Even if they were "around 4000 lbs", the 78-81 Camaro's were ALSO OVER 4000 lbs as we scaled them at Dragway Park after they ran. Look at the first example, 14.70 with 1978 HEADS not ported, STOCK. This 350 with alum head, intake BIGGER cam then both should run in the 13's with 3.08's. EVEN with the weight AND 3.08 gears, the thing should pull HARD from 2500 RPM and up as cam says 1500-6500? With the technology today these engine are making BIG power considering what we were running back in the mid '90's, that when the 2 Z28's were running. Today we are taking basic STOCK cars with manifolds and running really fast (low low 12's to mid 11's), but they take work and proper people that understand what it takes.
I can also see his point on PARKING it! I probably would too. The constant reminder that the engine isn't right plus the fact that it sounds good is a BIG TIME let down that would take all the fun out of the drive for me too.
BTW what size is the exhaust system? 2.5" pipe would be the absolute min I would run with this engine that is about 400+ Hp? Any smaller and your hurting the performance at this HP level. Simple rule of thumb, RUN SAME SIZE PIPE AS THE COLLECTOR SIZE OF HEADER!!!
My 58 Bel Air 2 door hardtop when it had a 350 with a TH350 a Vega torque converter and a 3.73 Posi used to do lay huge amounts of rubber and would brake stand with no issue whatsoever. Stock dished piston bottom end, Duntov 30 30 Solid, Port O Sonic Manifold, Headers, 3" exhaust with flowmasters, 3400 stall converter, 650 double pumper, ignition timing locked at 38 degrees with NO advance. This setup works. Now its a 348 T10 4 speed but it was pretty quick with the smallblock auto. It has one airbag in the right rear coil spring too. The 58 Impala has a 348 4bbl and a TH350 with a vega 3500 stall with a 3.55 posi and it will do burnouts and lay rubber-it has bias ply tires though.
-- Edited by mr409 on Friday 23rd of May 2014 08:58:41 PM
I'm located near Markham, Ontario. I tend to agree that there is definitely something wrong with my setup. For a bit more info, the engine was just a stock .040 over 350 that has been in the car for several years, but not too many miles on it (maybe 5000) I got the Edelbrock 2098 Performer RPM top end kit (alum. heads, intake, cam, etc) Comp roller rockers, Holley 700 cfm double pumper, MSD HEI distributor (all brand new stuff, nothing used) I'm running a set of 'shorty' headers, and full 2.5" dual exhaust with Flowmasters. The cam specs are 234*int and 244*exh duration at .050 lift. .488"/.510" lift 112* lobe separation and 107* intake centerline. It's installed straight up. I haven't done a brakestand to see where the converter actually stalls at. It's supposed to be 3200, but I think it's a bit lower. As the car is now, it barely idles, I have to turn it up to getting into the primary circuit to get it to stay running, it runs hot, it's very 'peaky' (inconsistent power delivery) It sounds like it should rip your face off, incredibly loud, (kinda embarassingly so, considering how slow it is) and yeah, it's slow. I've held it in gear up to 7000 rpm (i was so mad I didn't care if it blew) and just doesn't push you back in the seat at any rpm. I've tried moving the timing all over the place, jetting and re-jetting the carb, and nothing seems to make much difference. As far as I'm concerned, I got hung out to dry by my buddy that installed all this stuff. He seems to think it runs just fine, and has no interest in helping me with it. So much for the last 4 paintjobs I did for him...I probably saved him 20-30 grand in free work. Sigh, anyway, if anyone has any ideas or recommendations for me, believe me, I'm all ears.
-- Edited by 94smasher on Sunday 1st of June 2014 05:45:02 PM
....and at this point, if the engine has to be pulled out of the car, it's not going back in. Due to changes in my situation, I don't really have the money to get into a ton of work on it...so whatever I do, I have to pretty much do it myself, and pulling the motor is not high on my 'to-do' list.
.....to me it sounds like that cam should be thrown in the bush. A 300hp cam out of a 350 or a 275hp cam from a 327 with hyd lifters is all you need for a nice torkey engine. Not hard to change in the 58. I bought a 348 in pieces one time and the cam it came with was causing the motor to act something like yours, a dog, heating, won't idle. I bet you have very low vacuum also, just check it with a guage if you have one.
94 Your in a good area with a TON of good shops. I would suggest getting it DYNO TUNED on a chassis dyno. I just happen to have a "IN" with one up in Vaughan. I can do "some" of the leg work and talk to my guys and be the go-between for you, if that helps. Problem with this stuff could be a multiple of issues and even parts problem that your doing everything right, just the part is not right.
IF it were me, and being in your financial area in the past, I fully understand. I would get EVERYTHING you can to document what is in the engine. Every little piece you can from plug part numbers to the heads and even the air cleaner info. THEN go to the dyno where they can test it and just see where/what is the issue, or is it just soi mis-matched that this combo will never run right.
If you like, send me a PM and I will contact my guys and they WILL figure it out.
Thanks so much John, if I do decide to try dynoing the car i will definitely be in touch. I did put a vacuum gauge on it last year, and I was getting about 9 in-hg at idle. It's not enough to keep the power brakes working well, I know that much. I was hoping the combo would work, since the heads, cam, and intake all came from Edelbrock as a package. When you sit there and rev it while in park, my gawd it snaps fast and nasty...just doesn't translate when you drive it. I can't remember what my total timing was, but I do remember that it was coming in by 4000 rpm. Edelbrock suggested I change it to come in by 3000. I just haven't got the parts yet. They also suggested an 800 cfm carb, but I can't see that making the situation any better in a big tank of a car.
I'm located near Markham, Ontario. I tend to agree that there is definitely something wrong with my setup. For a bit more info, the engine was just a stock .040 over 350 that has been in the car for several years, but not too many miles on it (maybe 5000) I got the Edelbrock 2098 Performer RPM top end kit (alum. heads, intake, cam, etc) Comp roller rockers, Holley 700 cfm double pumper, MSD HEI distributor (all brand new stuff, nothing used) I'm running a set of 'shorty' headers, and full 2.5" dual exhaust with Flowmasters. The cam specs are 234*int and 244*exh duration at .050 lift. .488"/.510" lift 112* lobe separation and 107* intake centerline. It's installed straight up. I haven't done a brakestand to see where the converter actually stalls at. It's supposed to be 3200, but I think it's a bit lower. As the car is now, it barely idles, I have to turn it up to getting into the primary circuit to get it to stay running, it runs hot, it's very 'peaky' (inconsistent power delivery) It sounds like it should rip your face off, incredibly loud, (kinda embarassingly so, considering how slow it is) and yeah, it's slow. I've held it in gear up to 7000 rpm (i was so mad I didn't care if it blew) and just doesn't push you back in the seat at any rpm. I've tried moving the timing all over the place, jetting and re-jetting the carb, and nothing seems to make much difference. As far as I'm concerned, I got hung out to dry by my buddy that installed all this stuff. He seems to think it runs just fine, and has no interest in helping me with it. So much for the last 4 paintjobs I did for him...I probably saved him 20-30 grand in free work. Sigh, anyway, if anyone has any ideas or recommendations for me, believe me, I'm all ears.
-- Edited by 94smasher on Sunday 1st of June 2014 05:45:02 PM
JUST A THOUGHT, IS YOUR TRANSMISSION IN GOOD CONDITION?
I think you have a decent combination even if the cam isn't the worlds greatest. Having it professionally tuned is probably the best way to go, but if you want, I think we can help you get it running as good as possible and it should run pretty strong. It is a step by step process, so you have to be committed to the project to achieve success. The first thing to do is to make sure your valves aren't too tight. You want them as close to zero preload as possible, so that would be approx. 1/8 to 1/4 turn past zero. You want to adjust the valves with the engine at operating temperature and idling as slow as possible without stalling, with the PCV plugged. It can be messy, so be prepared with some cardboard shields or modified valve covers, and slowly loosen each rocker until it clacks then tighten it slowly till it stops clacking. After you get them all done, start over and verify they are all set at zero. Keep a mental note of how much each rocker had to be loosened to start clacking and make a mental note of how smoothly it is running. Once you are sure they are all at zero preload, turn the engine off and tighten each rocker the same amount, say 1/8 or 1/4 turn. After a few minutes restart the engine and note if it is running as smoothly as when you turned it off, it can take a few minutes for each lifter to absorb the preload but it should idle at least as smoothly as before.
While your in there try to see if the rocker geometry is close, as I remember those heads require pushrods that are .100" longer than stock to sweep properly. Also do you know if the cam was degreed, or just lined up, dot to dot?
After that, get a compression reading, and report back with your findings. I don't know your level of engine skills so feel free to discuss each aspect.
Hmm...some good ideas here. I'm fairly sure the trans is in good shape, as it has relatively few miles on a rebuild, and it shifts nice and firm every time. It doesn't have a gnarly shift kit in it, so it may be losing some there...but you've got me thinking about it, anyway. I'm honestly not the greatest with engines, I'm more of a body and paint guy...but I guess I have to learn. I remember when we put the thing together, we had to crank the valves down pretty tight. We set the lash to about 1/4 turn past 0, and it sounded terrible. Clattering like crazy. So, I wasn't there at the time, but bud said he cranked them down some more.I realize it's a big cam, but it's still hydraulic...they're supposed to be fairly quiet, no? I hate the sound of valvetrain noise...it just reminds me of a worn-out engine, I guess.
You are correct, I had to get .100 longer pushrods...we did check for that. Cam wasn't degreed, just dot to dot. And he set the dots both at 12 o'clock, instead of 12 and 6, which is what I would have expected.
I will consider trying the valve lash thing, but as I said, I'm a little unsure about it. That, and the car won't idle long enough for me to manage that without getting waaaayy too hot. It has a clutch fan and re-cored rad...but yeah....gets hot FAST sitting there idling.
I really appreciate all the help and suggestions...now I just gotta work up the intestinal fortitude to get out there and try some of this stuff.
The 6 o'clock and 12 o'clock are actually a wash, but it shows you were paying attention. With both at 12 o'clock the rotor would be pointing to #1 for ease of initial ignition timing at startup. It can be very rewarding to discover one or more valves too tight. The engine can smooth out as soon as they are loosened, if an fact any are too tight. They should be quiet at zero, the extra partial turn is just to absorb any future wear or inconsistency. At the very least you can learn a new skill!!
Thanks Randy
-- Edited by GLHS60 on Tuesday 3rd of June 2014 08:42:21 PM
Welp, went and got a second (and third) opinion...and yep, pretty much what I thought. Just the wrong combo for the car. There's a couple more things I will try, but for the most part, it seems like "live with it, or start over" are my options. Can't help but feel kinda taken advantage of, by a 'friend' who had some parts that would work great for me, and whom I guess just wanted to build a racecar on someone else's dime 'cuz he thought it was fun. Mind you, I guess I should have been more diligent in my research, instead of being so trusting. Time and again, it has been proven to me that trust just shouldn't exist anymore. It's only ever gotten me screwed. Anyway, that's my update/rant for this year... if I'm able to get back to it next year, I'll keep you all posted. In the meantime, keep on truckin', and at least use my situation as a reminder to always do your own research, and if you want to build an engine, try to find the right person, or just do it yourself. I'm thru relying on anybody for anything.
