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Post Info TOPIC: 1969 Pontiac 2+2 427/390 Convertible Barn find - But this one a 4-speed


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1969 Pontiac 2+2 427/390 Convertible Barn find - But this one a 4-speed


davepl wrote:


Does anyone know what "BUDD" means on a frame?  It's referenced in the parts book too.

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Budd Automotive was a company in Ontario that made frames for GM for a long time....and I believe all the big three.

https://www.therecord.com/news-story/2601856-kitchener-frame-plant-comes-down-as-a-new-era-for-the-property-begins/



-- Edited by Greaser on Friday 19th of January 2018 07:39:06 PM

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Poncho Master!

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Cool, thanks! Any reason to think they'd be any different than US frames?

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davepl wrote:

Cool, thanks! Any reason to think they'd be any different than US frames?


 It was an American company based in Troy Michigan......I'm sure the frames made for U.S. Pontiacs (still wide-track?)would be different.

More on Budd history.....

 History1965- Canada-United States Automotive Agreement, better known as the Auto Pact, is signed, which requires that for every car sold here, one had to be made here. It also requires that every Canadian-made car have 60 per cent Canadian content in parts and labour. New Budd plant for Kitchener kept a secret in the media until Toronto paper breaks the story. Budd buys 120 acres from Kitchener for $300,000. Workforce estimate goes from 400 to 750.

1966 - Construction of plant begins; Budd says workforce to increase to 1,000 workers.

1967 - Plant starts production.

1968 - Budds 750 workers agree to a three-year pact, which delivers a 40-per-cent wage increase that brings production workers hourly wage to $4.45 an hour. The workers strike for two months over the summer.

1969 - Budd plant posts a profit of $2.5 million, despite lower frame sales.

1970 - Company announces $40 million expansion and says workforce to increase to 1,500.

1971 - Company earns $1.5 million, thanks to brisk sales. Directors say the newly expanded plant is beginning to realize its potential. Employment reaches 2,000 workers.

1972 - Budd shifts tool and die work to Philadelphia to help a work shortage there, but local plants profit hits $6.9 million as frame sales surge.

1973 - Plant profits hit $8.4 million. Nearly 2,000 workers stage wildcat strike after company refuses them breaks from the stifling heat during a July heat wave.

1974 - Steel shortages and auto sales slump cut company profit to $4.8 million. Budd lands AMC as a customer, and makes frames for the Pacer. A reduced workforce of 1,700 ratifies three-year deal, giving them parity with U.S. workers. A wildcat strike in August almost results in court action.

1975 - Budd loses GM contract to Dana Corp. of Pa., which prompts Kitchener Mayor Edith MacIntosh to go to Ottawa seeking government aid for the ailing auto sector. Profit sinks to $2 million as 850 workers are laid off.

1976 - The plant lands a new frame contract with GM, pledges to return staff to full complement.

1977 - Union signs three-year deal, ending a short strike. Production workers pay rises to $8.67. Plant employment rises to 2,700. Profit hits $8.3 million.

1978 - Rumours of a Budd Co. takeover circulate. Thyssen confirmed as the buyer in April. Loss of a Ford contract threatens 1,000 jobs.

1979 - $9.9 million profit for Budd Canada, as plant reaches peak of more than 3,000 workers, with some estimates suggesting a workforce of 3,300. The company sees 68 illegal work stoppages between 1978-79, but management and union pledge to turn the page. Hugh Sloan appointed Budd Canada president.

1980 - Plant operates at less than 50 per cent capacity as more than 1,100 worker laid off. Budd Canada president Hugh Sloan calls it an outright depression in the automotive industry. Plant, UAW, strike three-year collective agreement. Worker numbers fall to 685.

1981 - Budd management says UAW refusal to adjust its collective agreement is reason for a lost GM contract. Workforce grows to 1,400 workers, but 821 layoffs given to workers in November. Profit sinks to $3 million.

1982 - Company suspends dividends as recession continues. Company employs about 850-1,000 workers and invests $20 million to automate the plant. It lands two new contracts but loses $8.9 million.

1983 - Company loses $2.2 million as Sloan describes state of auto industry as being in a a recession of monumental proportions. Company sells off Brampton engineering division.

1984 - Company returns to profitability of $11.25 million, expands plant. Labour relations improved as company nominated for national labour standards award.

1985 - Workers ratify new three-year deal without a strike for first time since 1971. Profits rise to record $26.7 million. News of a Toyota plant in Cambridge seen as good news. Hugh Sloan resigns.

1986 - Plant wins new contract with Ford as employment reaches 1,750. Profits hit $27.8 million.

1987 - New labour deal reached between Budd, CAW months before old contract expires. Profits hit $26 million.

1988 - Profits sink to $19.5 million.

1989 - Hundreds of layoffs in anticipation of a slowdown. Free Trade replaces Auto Pact. Profits hit $27.6 million.

1990 - Profits fall to $18.5 million, due to high Canadian dollar, struggles in the domestic auto industry.

1991- Profits plummet to $1.6 million, due to recession. An April strike becomes violent when company attempts to drive trucks into the plant. Heated standoff as train attempts to enter plant. Strike ends after 16 days, with plant closure agreement.

1992 - Profits improve to $3.6 million.

1993 - $2.7-million profit marks 10th straight profitable year. Workers reject contract extension, which calls for two-year wage freeze.

1994 - Costs to retool factory eat into financials, as company posts $8.8 million loss, despite surging sales. A new contract is signed in January and a new deal with Mercedes is struck.

1995 - $3.3 million profit is credited in part to the weak loonie.

1996 - Budd Canada renamed Thyssen Budd Canada. Profit rises to $6.4 million. 2,000 people line up for 50 production line jobs at Budd in June.

1997 - $6.7 million profit as workforce remains steady at 1,400. Workers ratify new deal that company says will put it in position to land GM deal to make 360 light truck platform.

1998 - ThyssenKrupp formed out of merger. Budd undergoes $4-million expansion and posts $7.4-million profit.

1999 - Plant posts $8.6-million profit and plans to spend $100-million to upgrade plant to hydroforming technology. Workforce grows to 1,700.

2000 - Profit of $2.1 million as workforce grows to 1,900. The investment in new equipment said to be $150-million, as company warns of huge loss.

2001 - Plant posts loss of $94.2 million. Workforce grows to 2,000, because of GM contract for SUV frames.

2002 - Loss of $68.8-million. Company trims staff by 100 as it tries to return to profitability.

2003 - ThyssenKrupp Budd still losing money, cuts jobs due to new efficiency improvements.

2004 - Company posts $14.1-million loss. German parent warns of more job losses, due to contracts ending and SUVs falling out of favour.

2005 - Workforce shrinks to 1,300, as GM SUV sales drop 16 per cent.

2006 - Plant changes name to Kitchener Frame after Martinrea International buys 12 plants from ThyssenKrupp. Active workforce reduced to 950 workers.

2007 - Auto industry strikes in the U.S., combined with continuing SUV sales slump and high dollar, force more layoffs as active workforce shrinks to 750.

2008 - In February, Martinrea says it intends to close Kitchener Frame by April, since it has no further contracts following the GM deal. A pact is reach to extend production to 2010, but GMs closure of its SUV plant in Ohio, which Kitchener Frame supplies, kills all hopes. Most remaining workers let go before Dec. 23. Last frame completed on Dec. 2.

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2017 - Not totally demolished - There are still two buildings remaining. They are wide open. Security usually on site. 

 
 


-- Edited by Greaser on Friday 19th of January 2018 07:51:50 PM

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Poncho Master!

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No, I meant were the BUDD frames also used on Impalas, and did any make it into the US, or did US Impalas get BUDD chassis too?

Mine is stamped with the same part number, for what it's worth, as the Impala.

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Poncho Master!

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Mine's harder to read, but here it is. I wonder what the difference/strengthening was of the convertible frame and whether that was incorporated into the "unified" 1970 frame? Or did they just start listing the 1970 Impala Chassis as superseding the 1969 perhaps?
IMG_5768.JPG



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Canadian Poncho Superstar!

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FYI - The bottoms of the frame rails on your convertible are 1" wider than non-convertibles, making the crossmembers 2" shorter than non-convertibles.

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70 2+2 convertible
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70 Parisienne hardtop
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Poncho Master!

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Everything came back from the powder coater today, so on to assembly. I had a bunch of stuff done in a light color that I will detail-paint as I go. There was one "rust from the inside" spot on the frame that they are going to repair at the shop for me (frame welding is above my pay grade, especially if you want to hide it).
IMG_5964.JPG

IMG_5962.JPG



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A Poncho Legend!

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IMG_5962.JPG

IMG_5964.JPG

 



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Guru

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Looks great! Looks like your one your way to getting the frame rolling again-only better than new!


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Canadian Poncho Superstar!

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It all looks good. Let me know if pressing the bushings into the power coated control arms poses a problem.

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70 2+2 convertible
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72 GMC Sierra

 

 



Poncho Master!

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I'm expecting to have to grind it out of bearing mating surfaces. I think those clearances are pretty tight and powder is pretty thick. Or the press could just "press" it out of the way, that's possible too.

I'm having a trusted tech do it.  He's also got all of the handy spacers and spreaders that makes it easier press work.  I did my truck myself at home but didn't want to play with the front springs on this cars without the weight of the body and engine.  In fact the shop manual's approach requires gravity and wouldn't work anyway!  From him the steering box, rear end, transmission, and engine all went out for rebuilding, and he'll put it all back together except the engine and trans.  The engine won't be ready for a while and he doesn't have room to store the chassis so he wants me to take it all home and then come get the engine when it's ready, which I will then install at home and go from there!

So far I've been "general contractor and part time component restorer".  And part-time parts hunter.

Speaking of shop manual, I looked up the bearing installation to see if they should be lubricated or anything.  It literally just says "turn down on the puller screw to install the bushing".



-- Edited by davepl on Friday 9th of February 2018 03:24:10 PM



-- Edited by davepl on Friday 9th of February 2018 03:25:29 PM

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Guru

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freeze the bushings in your freezer before putting them-it will shrink them a few thou-it helps-been there done that

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Canadian Poncho Superstar!

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On the front lower arm, it's good insurance to place 3 tack welds at the shell to arm. Otherwise its likely to walk out. Your Tech will know this.



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Canadian Poncho Superstar!

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cdnpont wrote:

On the front lower arm, it's good insurance to place 3 tack welds at the shell to arm. Otherwise its likely to walk out. Your Tech will know this.


 Good advice.  I didn't do this and I see the front lower control arm bushings on my Parisienne have walked out.



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70 2+2 convertible
70 2+2 hardtop
70 Parisienne hardtop
72 GMC Sierra

 

 



Poncho Master!

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Do you mean walk out while you're trying to install it or, or ??? I crawled under my coupe and once installed the bushing is captured isn't it?

Other than replacing bushing a few times I don't know much about suspension, to be honest.


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Canadian Poncho Superstar!

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No, after the fact Dave. The shell will begin to slip out of the arm. Or more to the point, the arm will slide off the bushing and will begin to rub on the frame. No real danger, but could effect alignment, and the adjustment as such.

I think it's really a one time factory install thing. Removing a bushing and pressing a new one in seem to always open the arm up a little.



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67' Grande Parisienne. Ex Ottawa USSR Embassy car, 67- 68.
6977017306_dfca361bfc_m.jpg
 


Canadian Poncho Superstar!

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The interesting thing about the lower front control arm bushings, is that they're a bit flared from the factory. The book says to bang the flare out, which aids in removing the bushing. Mark's comment about tack welding the new bushing makes sense.

When I crawled under my Parisienne a year or so after driving it (I was cleaning the underside as I went through about 10 miles of road construction and got grit/sand everywhere), I saw the bushing had come out a bit. The bushing can't really go anywhere, but I agree it's not ideal.

If I recall, Mark had suggested the tack welding in a thread a long time ago.

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70 2+2 convertible
70 2+2 hardtop
70 Parisienne hardtop
72 GMC Sierra

 

 



Poncho Master!

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Got the frame all repaired today. Only one little spot required repair, roughly below the driver (behind the cowl). Here's a pic of after welding, but before any topcoat.

Hardest part was working around and preserving one of the four "divots" on the underside of the frame.  Anyone know what they're for?  I'm imagining the frame sits on some kind of fixture and it's aligned on these little "divots", but I don't really know.

20180212_221947552_iOS.jpg



-- Edited by davepl on Monday 12th of February 2018 07:35:31 PM

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Poncho Master!

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Most of the chassis is back together. I need to straighten some lines and paint some detail items yet, but it's close!
IMG_6086.JPGIMG_6087.JPGIMG_6088.JPGIMG_6089.JPGIMG_6090.JPGIMG_6091.JPGIMG_6092.JPG



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Poncho Master!

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Boy, someone is not fooling around! Trying to match GM's build time on the original?


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Poncho Master!

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Frame/chassis looks very nice.



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The Projects:

1935 Chev 3 Window Std Coupe

1967 Mustang Convertible

1969 Firebird 350HO Convertible

1969 Camaro X11-V8

1969 GTO

1969 Parisienne SOLD

1969 2+2 was a 396

1969 2+2 427

1978 Chevy Short Box Step Side 4x4

1980 Harley FXWG

1986 CJ7 Jeep

 



A Poncho Legend!

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Man oh man, are you going to be driving this thing next week? Wow.

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Boy that brings back some memories Dave. The frame seem identical to my '66's. You are doing a fantastic job. Can hardly wait to see the finished beauty.

Luppy



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Canadian Poncho Superstar!

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Looks great, man you don't mess around.

Is the body away being done?



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67' Grande Parisienne. Ex Ottawa USSR Embassy car, 67- 68.
6977017306_dfca361bfc_m.jpg
 


Poncho Master!

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I was more of a "general contractor" and "day laborer" on this chassis, as I blew the car apart and the had my friend's shop send the various assembles (power steering box, rear end, M20 trans, etc) out for rebuilding around the area, took the parts out to the powdercoater, and then reassemble as they came back. While waiting for parts lots of sandblasting and painting, and the chassis should slip under the car again today!

This one's not -quite- to the level of the coupe, where they zinc-plated every chassis fastener, whereas I'm separately painting but not replating much.

I really hate that gray on the upper control arm shafts, I'll need to scuff and repaint that for sure. Looks OK on the springs though, at least to me.

I forgot to order body mounts, didn't think I'd need them this fast, and I don't have the bolts, I don't think!

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