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Wheel widths in 69


The 2+2 I'm about to restore had optional G70-15 redline tires.  Would the rims be any different or did they all come with the same rim?  I appear to even have the correct 4 center caps, so I'm assuming I have the original wheels, but do not know for sure.

 

 



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If nobody replies sooner I can check tonight.

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Unlike Chevrolet which still used 14x5 wheels as base on drum brake cars (except wagons), Pontiac used 14x6 wheels as standard on all the 7000-series (i.e. Canadian) Pontiacs. This was all part of the Wide Track theme, even though they used Chevrolet frames, suspensions & axles, brakes etc. Disk brake cars used 15x6 wheels, as did any cars with 70-series tires. Rally Wheels were no longer standard on disk brake cars, but they were optional on all and were also 15x6.

In all cases, wheels had a .06" offset.



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I'm curious , if the 15"x6" rallyes were optional for 69 , what did Pontiac use for a centre cap ( Chev had the derby cap )    



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They used the 1967 Chevrolet-sourced Rally Wheel flat caps on the Canadian Pontiacs 1967 through 1970 with a different (plain) center medallion. Beaumonts also used them 1967-69. As for Acadians I'm not 100% sure that they used them other than the disk brake 67s (which would be very rare)



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These are indeed rally wheels if that makes a difference (the car has that option also). So they're rally wheels with the wider tires, but do they use a wider rim or the same rim... I guess that's the question!

I don't suppose anyone has found another source or application for the "blank" center medallions, have they?  On my non-real 2+2 I have "discount" rally caps that are likely from China and look almost perfect, as they lack the Chevrolet scripting.  Close, but not exact.



-- Edited by davepl on Tuesday 7th of November 2017 08:49:30 PM

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The factory wheel width for all 1968 through 1970 full-size Pontiacs were 6" wide whether 70-series tires or conventional 78-series (including the 8.25-14 tires). Yes they do seem skinny but that is what was factory. I am not certain but I think the 6" wide wheels remained on the full-size Pontiacs even with the Radial Tuned Suspension (RTS) for 1974. I believe the 7" wheels finally appeared on the 1977 models with F-41.



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davepl wrote:

These are indeed rally wheels if that makes a difference (the car has that option also). So they're rally wheels with the wider tires, but do they use a wider rim or the same rim... I guess that's the question!

I don't suppose anyone has found another source or application for the "blank" center medallions, have they?  On my non-real 2+2 I have "discount" rally caps that are likely from China and look almost perfect, as they lack the Chevrolet scripting.  Close, but not exact.



-- Edited by davepl on Tuesday 7th of November 2017 08:49:30 PM



I thought Dale's Musclecar reproduced those, but I may be wrong.

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From Pontiac 1962-71 Parts Catalogue.....


 

1969 Steele Wheel-01.jpg

1969 Steele Wheel-02.jpg



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Here is a question, were the pontiac wheels different than the ones going onto same year full size chevies? I suspect that the chevy 6" rim (14 or 15") had different backspacing or offset so that the Pontiac could be marketed as having a wider track even though it was just a Chevy.

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and a 1969 Canadian 2+2



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I don't think Canadian Pontiacs had any wider track than the Impala... in fact it's 99% marketing, the track on a WideTrack Pontiac isn't substantially wider either, last time I looked that up!

I see 1968-1970 "All With Rally Wheels", so there appears to be only one size. The part number is 3968773 which is the same as what Exckler's Corvette lists for the 1967 Corvette.  I also noticed that this wheel part number is the one specifically listed for G70 red stripe tires in 1967 (but not other years for whatever reason) so my conclusion is that my car should have "regular old rally wheels" even with the G70 redstripe tire option.

www.ecklerscorvette.com/corvette-rally-wheel-15-x-6-1967.html



-- Edited by davepl on Wednesday 8th of November 2017 01:46:02 PM

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davepl wrote:

 so my conclusion is that my car should have "regular old rally wheels" even with the G70 redstripe tire option.



       you are correct



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North wrote:

Here is a question, were the pontiac wheels different than the ones going onto same year full size chevies? I suspect that the chevy 6" rim (14 or 15") had different backspacing or offset so that the Pontiac could be marketed as having a wider track even though it was just a Chevy.





You tweaked my interest with that statement. I checked the parts books and 14x6 and 15x6 plain steel wheels for 69 full size Chev or Canadian Pontiac are identical part numbers.

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CdnGMfan wrote:

The factory wheel width for all 1968 through 1970 full-size Pontiacs were 6" wide whether 70-series tires or conventional 78-series (including the 8.25-14 tires). Yes they do seem skinny but that is what was factory.





If the parts book is right, that is true for 14" but not for 15" where they list a 15x5 steel wheel for 69-70 full size Pontiac. Interesting, why ever would they put such a crazy sized rim on a big car like that?

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CdnGMfan wrote:

They used the 1967 Chevrolet-sourced Rally Wheel flat caps on the Canadian Pontiacs 1967 through 1970 with a different (plain) center medallion. Beaumonts also used them 1967-69. As for Acadians I'm not 100% sure that they used them other than the disk brake 67s (which would be very rare)


 Does anyone have a picture of what these caps for rallye's look like ?  



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Here's an original.

4_14 PM 11_8_2017 - Bitmap.png



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There is an interesting variation of that cap that shows up occasionally, it says "Disc Brakes" around the perimeter of the ornament. They seem to be awful rare though.

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After I posted that I decided to look at the parts book to see if I could figure it out exactly why most are plain and some say Disc Brakes.

Found it easily, 67 Acadian, Beaumont and full size Canadian Pontiacs with Disc Brakes say that on the cap. 68 and up are plain.

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davepl wrote:

Here's an original.

4_14 PM 11_8_2017 - Bitmap.png


Thanks ... I have to say I have never seen this version of a rallye cap before cap before  



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They're not common.

I checked and it looks like 67 Acadian with disc brakes, 67-69 Beaumont with rally wheels and 67-70 2+2 (Canadian).

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I'll have to check, but for some reason I think the original ralley wheels on my 70 2+2s were 15 x 5's. I've upgraded both to 15 x 7's.

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Carl Stevenson wrote:
CdnGMfan wrote:

 

The factory wheel width for all 1968 through 1970 full-size Pontiacs were 6" wide whether 70-series tires or conventional 78-series (including the 8.25-14 tires). Yes they do seem skinny but that is what was factory.



 



If the parts book is right, that is true for 14" but not for 15" where they list a 15x5 steel wheel for 69-70 full size Pontiac. Interesting, why ever would they put such a crazy sized rim on a big car like that?


 Well I'll be damned. I'm looking at the 1969 brochure right now and it list 14x6 as the base size wheel. Rally Wheels were 15x6 at that time. Wide Track was Pontiac's theme and 6" wheels were but one way to sort of claim it even on the Chevy frame. Looking at the sample page from a part catalogue posted by "409Safari" (thanks for that thumbsup.gif ) it shows a 15x5JJ size was listed as one type of wheel in 69-70, part # 3964071. That was an inexcusable regression and very much a surprise to me to offer such a skinny wheel after standardizing on a 6" width starting in '68. If it were just a Chevy, sure. For 1970 Chevy & Pontiac went up to 15" diameter wheels as standard on all. Dad's '70 Biscayne had 15x5 wheels with optional up-sized G78-15 tires.

I am looking at my 1970 Pontiac 750-760 Preliminary Parts Catalogue No. X702 right now. Indeed it does show the 15x5JJ wheel on non disk brake cars and is listed as "new parts - initial catalogue".

Image2.jpg

Image1.jpg

 

Image4.jpg

Image3.jpg

 

It looks like the 68-69 drum brake cars came standard with the 14x6 wheels but what I am reading is the 15x5JJ was an option (if I am reading it correctly) and carried into some of the 1970 models (depending on options). Then it shows that 15x6 may have been standard as witnessed by the 3972783 wheel on all. Confusing. Maybe it just means that it was offered on all except on Rally Wheel cars (like the 70 2+2) but was not necessarily standard. So now I cross reference with my 1970 Pontiac brochure and it shows 15x5 wheels standard on cars with the 250 six & 350 V8s, 15x6 on 400 & 454 cars. For reference, 1970 Big Chevies with 250 or 350 engines came standard with F78-15 tires (G78 on Impala & Caprice 350s) while 400 & 454 models came with H78-15 tires as base. The Pontiac brochure says the standard tires were F78 or G78-15 within a given model & series (six or V8 perhaps)

They don't allude to offering a skinnier 5" wheel on the 1969 Pontiacs when I look at my 1969 Preliminary New Product Information book for Pontiac, Beaumont, Acadian & GMC Truck. All it says is, "Wheel rim width increases and extended usage of the wide-base type tire, both in passenger car and truck applications, constitute major changes in  this area for 1969".

 

Are you dizzy with all this yet? I am.

 

 

In summary:

What I said about the 6" wide wheels being standard in 1969 was correct, but it was also possible with an optional skinny 15" tire and not too much engine (and only with drum brakes) to get a 15x5 wheel over a 14x6. They would have been unusual though, as most had drum brakes & 14x6 wheels (even 427 cars). 15x6 wheels were also optional (standard with disk brakes), plus all Rally Wheels were 15x6.

In 1970 the 14" diameter sizes were dropped and  they all came with 15" diameter wheels (some were 5" wide if running a six or 350 V8 with base tires); disk brake cars came with 15x6 wheels as did all wagons, as well as 400 & 454 cars. Of course the 15x6 Rally Wheels were standard on the 1970 2+2.



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seventy2plus2 wrote:

I'll have to check, but for some reason I think the original ralley wheels on my 70 2+2s were 15 x 5's. I've upgraded both to 15 x 7's.


 The 15x5 Rally Wheels were used in 1967 and may have crept into the early 68s with disk brakes, but officially the 68-70 B bodies with Rally Wheels used the 15x6 size.

If you think yours were 15x5 because they looked too skinny, they were probably 15x6 because they also look too skinny. See the picture of the 1970 Chevy below:

70BelAirSportCoupe.jpg

I created that picture out of a Bel Air 4-door and I incorporated a picture of correct 15x6 Rallies into it. Incidentally I created that picture to duplicate exactly a car I saw in person in the early 70s in Hamilton. Similar to you ex Laurentian in concept.

 

 

I remember a nice clean original 1967 Impala SS coupe with a 327, TH400 & disk brakes in Dundas, Ontario back in 1974 through 1976 that ran 15x5 Rally Wheels. Man, they looked way skinny even with the flat 67 caps.

Shown below is a '67 Chevelle with 14x5 Rally Wheels. It is what you got in '67 if you ordered disk brakes with 7.35 or 7.75-14 tires. See how skinny they look? Those also were the only size Rally Wheel used on the 67 Chevy II & Acadian with disk brakes.

67Malibu-KK-14x5Rally.jpg



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67 Chevelle Malibu Sport Coupe, Oshawa-built stocker 250 Powerglide 40,000 mile

Also in garage waiting: stroker 296 cid inline six & built TH350

Cameron Milne, Toronto.


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Carl Stevenson wrote:

dizzy.jpg


 Carl, take 2 Aspirin and don't read anything but the summary.



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