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Post Info TOPIC: Ontario looks to double amount of ethanol in gasoline....not good news for gasoline engines


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Ontario looks to double amount of ethanol in gasoline....not good news for gasoline engines


http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ethanol-gas-biofuels-ontario-clean-fuel-standard-1.4428179

 

Canada's Ecofiscal Commission, an independent group of economic policy analysts,

reported recently that while biofuels like ethanol have resulted in significant reductions in greenhouse gas emissions,

they have done so at a high cost to taxpayers and the economy.

The commission recommends governments phase out their ethanol content rules,

rather than increase them as Ontario is doing.

Their report argued that the quota gives an unfair advantage to ethanol producers and inhibits the development of other low-carbon technologies.  

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https://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-drive/culture/commentary/the-problem-with-ethanol-in-gasoline/article29103634/

There are four problems with ethanol:

1.) It is corrosive when in contact with certain materials in fuel storage and delivery systems,

including some rubber compounds and the zinc and aluminum alloys used in carburetors.

 

2.) Because it is an alcohol, ethanol dries out the rubber components in a fuel system.

This leads to cracking and brittle fuel lines, floats, seals and diaphragms.

 

3.) Ethanol is hygroscopic - it likes water. Water enters fuel containers when they are filled up.

Once in the gasoline, it forms a chemical mix that causes corrosion of internal parts.

As the fuel level in a tank or container drops, water condenses on the cool surfaces of the vessel,

drops and runs down into the fuel where the ethanol welcomes it.

 

4.) It acts as a solvent in older engines, dissolving the varnish and other deposits in tanks and lines.

These then are carried to the carburetor or injection system where they can clog the small orifices involved.

 



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Poncho Master!

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What the hell? The energy in ethanol is lower, the problems well documented, the benefits are way overstated and have the effect of putting pressure on corn stocks. It is a no-brainer. Apparently enacting these draconian measures requires no brain.



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CdnGMfan wrote:

What the hell? The energy in ethanol is lower, the problems well documented, the benefits are way overstated and have the effect of putting pressure on corn stocks. It is a no-brainer. Apparently enacting these draconian measures requires no brain.


 No brain was used when whoever came up with the idea of using a food source as fuel.



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x2



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at the risk of violating the 'no politics' rule can we try to mobilize and get this horses ass government out of office?



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Brian

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Yeah, we gotta make sure we stay focused on the ethanol debate and not any of the north-end-of-a-southbound-horse people mentioned above.

Otherwise this thread has to be locked.

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OK, I'll step off



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Brian

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No worries, you did fine!

We all know what we are thinking, we just don't want to get into the debates that never end well.

This is the one part about being a moderator that is tough on me. I would rather take off the moderator hat and dive in! Problem is, we've lost some members over debates religion, politics and "Is a Beaumont/Acadian a Pontiac". Thankfully, some of those members who left have returned once those topics were banned, and we want to keep them as well as all the existing members.

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thanks Carl!

I respect the fine line that must be walked



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Brian

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Canada's Ecofiscal Commission, an independent group of economic policy analysts,

reported recently that while biofuels like ethanol have resulted in significant reductions in greenhouse gas emissions,

they have done so at a high cost to taxpayers and the economy.

The commission recommends governments phase out their ethanol content rules,

rather than increase them as Ontario is doing.

So.. we spend Federal money to get answers, and our Provincial folks ignore the info .   Wow .  thats a disappointment 



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427carl wrote:

Canada's Ecofiscal Commission, an independent group of economic policy analysts,

reported recently that while biofuels like ethanol have resulted in significant reductions in greenhouse gas emissions,

they have done so at a high cost to taxpayers and the economy.

The commission recommends governments phase out their ethanol content rules,

rather than increase them as Ontario is doing.

So.. we spend Federal money to get answers, and our Provincial folks ignore the info .   Wow .  thats a disappointment 


 YES!!! so let's try to do something



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Brian

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I wonder if we could send our opinions to our local MPP or MTO .   I guess I can slip over to Michigan (70miles away) and get some for my older vehicles 

 



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Anybody know if these treatments actually do anything  to curb the negative effects of Ethanol in your fuel system?

http://www.fuelsystemguide.com/what-is-the-best-ethanol-fuel-treatment/

 

How do ethanol fuel problems affect the fuel system?

 

 

  • Reduced fuel longevity
  • Lower octane rating
  • Poor engine performance
  • Corrosion and rust of metal parts
  • Gumming up the injectors
  • Clogged fuel filters

 

What is Ethanol fuel?

Ethanol is ethyl alcohol which is the same alcohol found in your glass of beer or wine. Ethanol is added to gasoline to reduce carbon monoxide emissions. Nowadays most cars can run on an ethanol fuel blend of up to 10% which is the most common gas sold in the US. This is known as E10 fuel. You might also have heard it referred to as gasohol or renewable fuel, as the ethanol comes from renewable sources. Corn is one such source.

Fuel Separation

The main problem with ethanol fuel is that it absorbs water from the atmosphere. Even fuel with a small amount or ethanol such as an E10 blend can absorb up to 50% more water from the atmosphere than gasoline.

So what's the problem with water in your gas tank? Basically once the amount of water in the fuel reaches saturation point, it causes the fuel to separate into two layers; one thick and one thin. The thick layer contains gasoline and a small amount of ethanol. The thin layer contains water with ethanol. Even a small amount of water will cause this separation. Even in a modern sealed fuel system water can separate out, for example when there are changes in temperature.

Other problems

Ethanol fuel is corrosive, it can damage rubber or plastic components in your fuel system such as diaphragms, hoses and seals. Alcohol is a solvent and it can actually remove deposits from the engine. While this may seem like a good thing these deposits can settle elsewhere - such as in the injectors. A lot of older fuel systems are not designed to cope with alcohol in the fuel. Meaning that if you have an older car it's even more critical to take some care when using an E10 fuel.

Don't forget that ethanol fuel affects other types of engines such as mowers and boats as well. In fact these are more likely to have problems as they are used less often. Ethanol fuel problems tend to be exacerbated the longer the fuel sits around without use. So if you are running these types of engines then you really want to consider an additive to stabilize the fuel and save your engines.

 

E15 is a new blend with 15% alcohol. This is quite a controversial blend approved for use by the EPA in June 2012 for vehicles built after 2001. The American Automobile Association (AAA) have warned about the problems with E15. You can find out more about their views on their website.

So what should you do to avoid ethanol fuel problems?

The best thing you can do is to use an Ethanol Fuel additive that will help avert all of these problems.  If you don't use your vehicle or machine very often then would be best to use a treatment that also contains a stabilizer.  If you drive your vehicle and refuel regularly then you might want to use a fuel additive that will keep the engine clean and running smoothly.  We review 3 of the most popular Ethanol Fuel Treatments below.

 

41nDkjgoWML1.jpg

Lucas Oil Safeguard Ethanol Fuel Conditioner

Lucas Ethanol Fuel Conditioner is one of the "fan favorites' for ethanol fuel treatments. It was designed specifically to treat ethanol fuels.  It is an extremely potent blend, so make sure you do the math before you use it: one ounce treats five gallons of fuel, so one bottle will treat up to 25 gallons. The conditioner works to prevent rust, stop separation, and inhibit corrosion that ethanol fuels so often cause. But unlike some of the other brands, it doesn't stop there, it also cleans injectors, valve seats, and combustion chambers. This particular Lucas safeguard ethanol fuel conditioner is also recommended by the marine industry, as it works well with boats.   If you want a fuel stabilizer for storing your fuel then you might be better using Star Tron Enzyme Fuel treatment instead, as this is specifically formulated for storage.  However if you run your engine regularly and fill up your gas tank more often then we highly recommend this product.

 

 

 

51QkDgr6ZfL1.jpgStar Tron Enzyme Fuel Treatment - Concentrated Gas Formula

Enzyme Fuel Treatment is our top pick because it not only cures, but it also prevents many of the problems with ethanol fuel.  It removes carbon deposits, keeps your injectors clean and water including the phase separation. It can rejuvenate old fuel by restoring the octane.  It is also a popular choice because it is one of the longest lasting stabilizers, lasing for up to two years.  This makes it perfect for the vehicle that you might not drive all that often, but you pull it out for special occasions.  It is safe to use in all engines - including 2 stroke and four stroke.  Of course this also makes it a great choice for garden tools, motor cycles, boats - anything that you don't use that often, or that can go for months without being started.  It makes engine starts easy, improves fuel economy, and reduces emissions. If you are using it with small engine items such as garden tools then add the Star Tron to the can.  One bottle treats about three tanks of fuel and given the quality of this treatment it's well worth stocking up on a few bottles.

                                                 

 

STA-BIL 22264-CS Ethanol Treatment with Performance ImproverSTA-BIL 22264-CS Ethanol Treatment with Performance Improver

The choice of many car owners, the Sta bil ethanol treatment is added to your fuel tank to fix the damage that ethanol can do to your entire fuel system. It works by releasing a corrosion preventative vapour inside the tank.  Not only is it a great anti corrosive, but it also cleans fuel injectors, carburettors, and intake valves. It helps prevent separation by removing water from the fuel.    Sta- Bil Ethanol treatment can be used in a range of ethanol blends from E10 up to E85.  This particular treatment can be used for vehicles that get regular use, or for engines or vehicles that are being stored, or not used very often.  One treatment will be enough to stabilize your fuel for up to 12 months.   1 oz. (30mL) treats up to 5 gallons (19 liters) of fuel. For optimal protection you should use it every time you fill up.   Although it can be used in any gas engine for marine vehicles you might want to try STA-BIL Marine treatment.

 



-- Edited by Greaser on Monday 4th of December 2017 11:02:54 PM

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Poncho Master!

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Not trying to turn this into a political thread, but you all should have local MPs that you could voice your well-thought out, factual, concerns over. If enough people gave a damn they would start to notice. It is of no use to simply go in a rail against all initiatives as that will simply make one appear as intolerant and unwilling to change.

Didn't we used to have a political voice for automotive concerns? I think the Canadian Rodder's Association did speak for enthusiasts in that venue, but I heard something like the treasurer ran off a few years ago with the club funds (or something to that effect).



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It doesn't take a genius to see why growing corn is becoming a evermore popular cash crop in North America? It's feeding a growing demand, want it or not..

I could be wrong, but I bet the corn products lobby probably plays a good part of this proposed increase.

Lets hope Shell and whoever else continues to offer a least one premium Ethanol free product, but I'm concerned that will likely be legislated out. 



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You hit the nail on the head when you mentioned lobbyists. Both the corn farmers and David Suzuki have the gov'ts ear. ( Sorry if this is too political )

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Ethanol addition to gasoline was always a solution [ pun intended] looking for a problem.

Fred



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norontcan wrote:

You hit the nail on the head when you mentioned lobbyists. Both the corn farmers and David Suzuki have the gov'ts ear. ( Sorry if this is too political )


 Every time i hear Suzuki's name, i feel like i am going to burst all my blood vessels. I love to hate the guy and for sooooooooo many reasons.



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When I replaced Generator that was lost in garage fire, dealer had signs "posted" in show room/parts/service " Using ethanol gas VOIDS WARRANTY on all products purchased" The tractor repair place here in town is just kept busy repairing small engines just "gummed up
from this 'shyte" gas & tell owners not too use it ,but get the same answer all the time, either " too expensive, or all gas is the same" well now you've got a huge repair bill that could have been avoided?

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https://www.pure-gas.org/



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We sell a lot of small engine powered items at work, as well as small engines by themself to farmers. It's hard convincing guys that the ethanol is a death sentence for the carbs in these little engines but we've seen it so often...

A few years ago I switched all my fuel cans to premium for the boat, chainsaw, generator, mower, tiller etc.

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Learnt the hard way years back. Borrowed a buddies chain saw and put in regular fuel. Went to use it a couple of months later and it wouldn't run! Turns out the rubber fuel line had turned to mush...just gooey and sticky. Couldn't believe how it ate the rubber! $30 for a new line,was 2" long with a little filter on the end!!Think this is just another end user expense and the manufacturers making you the parts aren't complaining!!! Think it's all a feel good hoax. If millage is decreased for every percent of ethanol(lower combustion)...what are we gaining? Just means we fuel up more often...which means burning more fuel? What am I missing and why are we using???

MPG. Due to ethanol's lower energy content, FFVs operating on E85 get roughly 15% to 27% fewer miles per gallon than when operating on regular gasoline, depending on the ethanol content. Regular gasoline typically contains about 10% ethanol.



-- Edited by hawkeye5766 on Saturday 9th of December 2017 03:05:37 AM

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Several years ago I reviewed, peer-reviewed studies analyzing the benefit of alcohol for the reduction of Greenhouse Gas.
As I understood it, ethanol derived from sugar cane had a very slight advantage over crude oil derived gasoline. Ethanol derived from corn actually generated more GHG emissions than crude oil derived gasoline if you accounted for the fuel used to plant and harvest, convert to ethanol, provide the fertilizer required (the majority of which comes from natural gas), and delivery, blending etc.
There is no doubt in my mind that corn-derived ethanol is a boondoggle. Funded and pushed through by the Midwest farming lobbyist and the politicians they put into office. It is s financial windfall for farmers (in itself, not a bad thing) but it has a negative effect on the whole global warming issue. It's a placebo. The politicians come across as being green, the farmers make a bucket-load of money, the fertilizer manufacturers make a bucket load of cash, the farm implement dealers make a bucket load of cash. The only bad guys are the big bad oil companies.

Global warming is real. @ 7 billion people and rising, at some point we have to quit peeing in the damn pool. We need to do it in a way that makes actual sense from a scientific, verifiable perspective - not public opinion or political BS.

I run ethanol-free gas in all my small engines, and would do the same in all vehicles if i ciuld affotd the inflated additional cost.

DOCTOR David Suzuki should be smart enough to see this. unfortunately, he's the scientist trusted by the masses and he seems to be more political than any elected official.

Do your own research. come to your own conclusions. I'm sick of the whole sordid affair.

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Its the US corn farmers who got all of us into ethanol. What the US does we copy, all our auto specs are a copy of what they do, especially ethanol. There are many states who are trying to get rid of ethanol, but the corn lobby supported Trump and he's been waffling on getting rid of it.

If the US gets rid of ethanol, nothing ON or anyone in Canada can do if new cars stop being able to run on that stuff. We won't have our own spec when it comes to auto engines.

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DonSSDD wrote:

Its the US corn farmers who got all of us into ethanol. What the US does we copy, all our auto specs are a copy of what they do, especially ethanol. There are many states who are trying to get rid of ethanol, but the corn lobby supported Trump and he's been waffling on getting rid of it.

If the US gets rid of ethanol, nothing ON or anyone in Canada can do if new cars stop being able to run on that stuff. We won't have our own spec when it comes to auto engines.


Don, just read this article this morning......looks like Ethanol from corn will have a companion in the near future.......Canola

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/nabaa-alam-renewable-energy-1.4441182

 

"The licensing rights for the biofuel plant have been bought by Shell, and Alam said the oil giant is looking to see if it can be scaled for commercial use across the globe.

The biofuel plant is currently designed to convert 10 million litres of canola oil each year, but Shell is hoping to do 240 million litres a year."

 

 



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