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Poncho Master!

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Side Project: EFI


Now that I've got the red 2+2 off to the body shop, and the shop mostly cleaned up, I need a new project.  Not buying any new cars, so that means "fixing" an old one, but nothing's broken, so that means it's time for a change!

To that end, I had my black 2+2 restored probably 12 or more years ago and have been keeping it clean and not driving it, really.  About 400 miles total.  So now I want to drive it, but I want it dead-solid reliable, so here is my plan:

- Better driving (EFI Conversion)

- Better cooling (new Ron Davis triple-pass radiator)

- Better braking (put the Hydraboost back in)

 

Remember the black car isn't a "real" car anyway, it's a powerglide Laurentian with delusions of grandeur, so I don't have much compunction about modifying it.  But I always want it to LOOK stock, more or less.  The radiator won't help that, but I'll keep the EFI all under the air cleaner, or mostly anyway.

Here's a "before" photo taken before I modify!

IMG_6755.JPG

 



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Poncho Master!

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And you might be thinking "Well they drove fine enough stock, why mess with it, why not drive it as a Q-Jet powered stock car"? There are a few problems with it:

- I converted to all Willwood braking but it still has an assist problem, perhaps from low vacuum, hence the hydraboost
- The engine is actually a ZZ502 which seems to make more heat than the factory rad can shed on hot days in traffic. It's OK, but not foolproof, and I want foolproof.
- The heads are ROVAL port and the factory Q-Jet intake is OVAL and I have a hunch they don't seal together very well, creating vacuum leaks

So those are the three main problems I'm fixing. Could still be done without EFI, which is how I do it on my GMC, but to drive right then you need EVERY piece of emissions and driveability equipment like heat risers and so on. Otherwise they run terrible when cold, for example.




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Veteran Member

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beautiful engine bay


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A Poncho Legend!

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This might be a bit too radical however how about selling the 502 and going for a stout LS? These engines can take a lot of mods and the Fuel injection system is already sorted. There are kits available to make the install super easy.

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1969 Pontiac Laurentian 2 door hardtop **SOLD**
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Addicted!

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FYI......................Do research on throttle body EFI. It really is an electronic carb. If you have a fairly high duration cam, and higher LSA above about 110-112 the EFI will be a problem.
The high duration tends to cause reversion, when valves or both open. CPU's are easily tricked.
The problem is air and fuel, the computer sees air and throws fuel at it. It becomes a tough tuning act to get a lean/rich operating ratio.

I had the FAST system on my car with a 575 HP BBC that never ran right and eventually, due to heat ( which you eluded to ) and many other factors ( Big Cam )
caused in my opinion bearing failures that caused 2 destroyed builds and a ton of headaches and $$$$$$$$$$$$$$ in the wind. I would have been
OK with a well tuned carb and decent gauges to monitor mixture and other functions.

Long and agonizing story short.............I now have a full warranty connect and cruise LS3 4L70E and I couldn't be happier, did I mention warranty????

Just for your info, because I care that people are armed with info needed go make educated or experienced decisions. I am experienced and now educated.

Components to consider for EFI include, EFI fuel tank and pump, one way or return delivery, brackets for cpu install and proper location inside or engine bay,
distributor compatible with cpu generated timing , drive by wire?, monitoring system, etc, etc, do your homework. It is not plug and play and it does not always hold data that it may or may not " Learn ". My system seemed to be rather forgetful. If you want to EFI....I would recommend ported, like modern systems, more $$$$ but more up to date.

Good Luck.

L

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A Poncho Legend!

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Which reaffirms my advice- go LS.

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Poncho Master!

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Already did. I have an LS3-TKO600-9inch '69 Camaro. Not what I want for this car. In fact I've got a full computer and sequential MPFI setup already, sitting on a shelf, but not for this car.

This will be about my fifth different EFI style I've set up (GM, FAST, MSD, Holley, BS3) so I'm not exactly a babe in the woods!

Here's the stuff I have that I opted not to reuse.  You might like it better than what I'm using!

2014 Camera Roll 004.JPG



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Poncho Master!

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converted a twin tunnel ram to an old edelbrock EFI setup for my fatty. Installed an aeroflow EFI fuel pump system in my stock tank. Love it.

D6763FC6-0972-4E51-988F-F0554F64C321.jpeg

EDA99D86-5C86-4725-BF05-EE60DC2FA499.jpeg

479FB583-A451-41B3-B733-3E8E99356F64.jpeg



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cutting a roof off a four door is NOT a convertible.....

65 Parisienne convertible project.



Poncho Master!

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This is the first time I've done my fuel system this way however... I always used standard braided AN hose but it's not the hot ticket for today's fuels.

I bought a second 3/8" stainless fuel supply line from RightStuff, planning to "twin" my existing supply line, so that I'd have two 3/8" stainless runs. I already had the supply. I got the second, but it turns out those lines are much easier to install without the body on the frame and all of the crossmembers installed!

I wound up having to cut it and install a union at about where the trans crossmember is so that I could feed it "back from there" and "forward from there". Now I have the lines up to where they'd normally connect to stub lines for the pump.

I have to decide whether to make hard lines like the factory or just run braided from there to the throttle body.

This is also the first time I've done the little factory pump in the tank with a dedicated sump and all of that.  Beforehand I've run a big Aeromotitve A1000 pump in the tank but they're noisy, I'm hoping this one is factory quiet.

Got everything torn down to this point last night, on from there!

IMG_6776.JPG



-- Edited by davepl on Saturday 12th of May 2018 09:11:29 AM

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Poncho Master!

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There is. Differnt type of braided hose you can buy Which is less affected by fuels. The standard line can smell slightly fuelly. This stuff doesn't. it's a little thinner. You cansee it on the feed line to the fuel rail on my motor.



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cutting a roof off a four door is NOT a convertible.....

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Poncho Master!

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Yup, I'm actually running stainless hard line for eveything but the flex portions from frame to engine and tank to frame. In those two cases I'm running -6 AN braided hose, but am using the more modern "PTFE" (Teflon (tm)) hose that is resistant to fuels.

Of course I don't have any PTFE fitting so had to buy all new stuff.  It's a little different to work with than the rubber AN stuff, but not as bad as some of the Youtube videos made it look.  If you're launching the space shuttle you could spend about an hour on each connection!

I've used braided rubber hose for years without problem but I've heard of them weeping and smelling now too with modern fuel, so it seemed the safe thing to do.

Bending stainless isn't any fun, and it's a LOT of work and sore hips from the bender, but 30' of tubing later it's turning out nice. Here are the lines to my throttle body as an example...

IMG_6785.JPG



-- Edited by davepl on Sunday 13th of May 2018 10:11:14 AM

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Canadian Poncho Superstar!

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Lookin' good Dave.

FYI - your 'before' picture shows you've got the wrong hose clamps on the coolant bypass hose from the intake to the water pump. They shouldn't be tower clamps on the bypass hose.

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Poncho Master!

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Yeah, you're right, they should be those little "side gear" clamps or whatever they're called. I know the ones you mean. But remember I built this particular car the way I -think- GM should have offered it. That means Bonneville grills, a hood tach, and tower clamps on the bypass

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Addicted!

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koolconvertible wrote:

 You Aussies have been ahead of the EFI curve for years.

converted a twin tunnel ram to an old edelbrock EFI setup for my fatty. Installed an aeroflow EFI fuel pump system in my stock tank. Love it.

D6763FC6-0972-4E51-988F-F0554F64C321.jpeg

EDA99D86-5C86-4725-BF05-EE60DC2FA499.jpeg

479FB583-A451-41B3-B733-3E8E99356F64.jpeg


 



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67 Camaro RS Convertible/ Deepwater Blue / White Z28 Striping  SOLD



Poncho Master!

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Well, I'm 99.9% of the way there. I have a small fuel leak back by the tank at a flex line to solve, but that appears to be it.

Otherwise I turned the key and it started and ran first try!

The first time I pressurized the fuel system I had two leaks, both of which turned out to be fittings that I completely missed tightening. This leak that remains is a slow drip form somewhere so I'm hoping it's an easy fix. I really don't want to contend with fuel leaks at ALL.  This is my very first attempt at making PTFE/Teflon fittings so it wouldn't surprise me if I wasn't 100% first try.

Here's a quick pic. If you look close you can see signs, but at first glance it still looks fairly stock!


After EFI Install.JPG



-- Edited by davepl on Thursday 17th of May 2018 09:59:11 AM



-- Edited by davepl on Thursday 17th of May 2018 10:00:04 AM

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Poncho Master!

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Here's a walkaround video I made after the install. You can hear the injectors a little bit if you pay close attention, but not bad at all really.  Looks a lot better fullscreen if you click on the fullscreen box icon to open it up.



-- Edited by davepl on Friday 18th of May 2018 09:10:14 AM

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Canadian Poncho Superstar!

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Sounds good Dave. While back at the fuel tank did you check to see if the vent line was plugged?

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Poncho Master!

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No, what I did was when I was draining the fuel tank I blew compressed air into the hose to "inflate" the tank with the gap cap still on and it blew (defalted) out the vent, so I know it's working. And I'm able to get fuel in now that I know how to hold the darn nozzle!

Here's the video of how I drained the tank. Then when I was done I just backpurged the lines with compressed air:




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Poncho Master!

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Looks good, what system is it? What i did find out was the fittings need a 37.5° flare for the pipework, not your standard flare. Was cheaper for me to buy a good quality flaring tool from the states.



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cutting a roof off a four door is NOT a convertible.....

65 Parisienne convertible project.



Poncho Master!

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I have the "Mastercool" flaring set, which is also sold by Mac and likely SnapOn too. They make a separate 37 degree anvil and die set, so I bought those for my existing setup. No leaks!


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Poncho Master!

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Hey, random question. I had to install an inline filter, so being smart, I figured I'd do like I did when I emptied the old tank - I blew compressed air back into the supply line. But it was solid, wouldn't take any air, so "didn't work".

I'm guessing that's because the pump is now in the tank and doesn't go backwards for some reason? Whereas before it was just the pickup tube and sock and no pump?

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Guru

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I went with the msd efi works great 



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Poncho Master!

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Cool! What did you do for a fuel system? I know the MSD can in theory be run returnless and then it does PWM (pulse width modulation) to try to manage the amount of fuel pressure in the line, but I haven't talked to anyone who's tried running it that way yet, so curious. Even MSD seems to discourage it, but it'd sure be easier.


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