There seems to be alot of talk these days on water based Automotive paints, Anyone have any knowhow with this? If you tried this and how do you like it?
dualquadpete said
Nov 6, 2010
Haven't tried it yet but there was talk here in one of the threads. Down side is "long" drying time [need heaters & fans] & long waits before you can do the next coat or flash over the coat???
694279 said
Nov 6, 2010
hi LOTS OF AIR MOVEMENT TAKES A LOT LONGER TO PAINT A CAR
65post said
Nov 6, 2010
Have not sprayed an over all yet but have done alot of touch ups with it.I dont have no blowers in the booth and the wait time is roughly 10 to 15 mins.between coats.This stuff lays down real nice and for blowing in it is the best.Even on silver you cant tell 90 % of the time where you blew it in.I was reluctant to jump in to it at first but after trying it out I love it.The only thing I dont like about it is you cant scuff out any dust or dirt before you put your last dusting Coat.
Canadian Poncho said
Nov 6, 2010
I'm told you can expect more dirt in the paint due to longer dry times.
427carl said
Nov 6, 2010
how can you drive your car in the rain? would the paint not drip off??
Paulish said
Nov 27, 2010
Ive been spraying water base for about 4 years. I have a spray booth set up for it with built in blowers and that heats up nice and recicles the heated air to save $$$. It does take a little longer then solvent base but once you switch you would never go back. Water base can be sanded after a few minutes of blowing so its easy to get rid of imperfections in the paint before clear coating it. Colors are pretty good and i just clean my base coat gun with water!!
Down fall is you need a new water base gun, blowers and some heat helps.
If you are gonna try water MAKE SURE THE BASE IS DRY before clearing it. If you dont the clear will come off in sheets.
tin indian said
Nov 27, 2010
Paulish wrote:
Ive been spraying water base for about 4 years. I have a spray booth set up for it with built in blowers and that heats up nice and recicles the heated air to save $$$. It does take a little longer then solvent base but once you switch you would never go back. Water base can be sanded after a few minutes of blowing so its easy to get rid of imperfections in the paint before clear coating it. Colors are pretty good and i just clean my base coat gun with water!!
Down fall is you need a new water base gun, blowers and some heat helps.
If you are gonna try water MAKE SURE THE BASE IS DRY before clearing it. If you dont the clear will come off in sheets.
i agree with paulish, more drying time, i find the most important is air movement, more than heat. on the upside, most small pieces of dust come off with a tack cloth. the blending part of it works out better for spot painting. as for whether or not you,re gonna use it? you pretty well dont have a choice anymore. the clearcoat is not waterbase, its just a lower voc rating, so it doesnt wash off. lol
Laurentian said
Nov 27, 2010
I have been using it since 2007 and have sprayed three systems. Dupont chromax, PPG envirobase and BASF 90-line. they all have there quicks and querks as any system does. I find it faster (Sask winters are very dry) It is a different story when it is pouring rain outside. Most vehicles built today are waterborne so color matches are better. In all the systems I mentioned doing the 1/2 coat, orientation coat, drop coat, etc is critical to an accurate metallic color matches. Depending on the system, blending is no different to a completely different technique but easy just the same. Colors for older vehicles and restos are easily converted to waterborne by either making a request to the lab or by using a spectrophotometer.
Dust nibs are "dry sanded" as wet sanding will wash the paint off. Careful, use a "low tack" tack rag to tack, as the varnish may cause fish eyes. I soap and water wash all pieces after masking and before entering the booth and spray everything in pieces therefore my cleaning and booth prep is greatly reduced with no "jamb lines". Masking and tape must be waterborne compliant and in some systems spray out cards are now steel as cardboard ones just shrivel up.
I have sprayed motorcycles tanks from turning on the booth to sealer to clear coat in 45mins without rushing a single flash time. In my mind it is the way automotive refinishing should have been over twenty years ago instead of introducing HVLP guns.
The Low VOC products work well but I have found the pot lives are greatly reduced to almost only enough time to mix, spray, and wash the gun. Re-mixing requires rinsing the gun between mixes. Surfacer=45 mins pot life at three coats with ten min flash time do the math on an overall job, it will be tight.
Some of the products that we are all well used to and have come to rely on might be phased out because they don't make the VOC cut. Don't worry compliant products will be there to replace them.
"If paint didn't work, They couldn't sell it"
Canadian Poncho said
Nov 27, 2010
Thanks for the info guys!
dualquadpete said
Nov 27, 2010
OK Scott, sounds like you are equiped to do it, but what if you just want to paint your car in your garage or out in the backyard [to save making a mess in shop] How do you paint with no booth, no blower set up????
Laurentian said
Nov 27, 2010
dualquadpete wrote:
OK Scott, sounds like you are equiped to do it, but what if you just want to paint your car in your garage or out in the backyard [to save making a mess in shop] How do you paint with no booth, no blower set up????
All paint, solvent and waterborne, need some kind of air movement. Blowers at Princess auto are approx30$, one will do. They get at the dead spots that the air movement misses. An infra-red thermometer 40$ Canadian Tire shows when compared to a non painted panel the flash time. When the two temps match the paint is ready for the next coat. A solvent gun will work for an occasional waterborne job. 70F and 50% humidity is perfect conditions. Waterborne is only the color everything else is still solvent.
All refinishing should be performed in a legal booth with all the safety guards in place.
dualquadpete said
Nov 29, 2010
Ok what you are saying is "your screwed" for painting at home without a proper booth witch "likely" none of us have!!!! Guess I'll order the paint & thinners etc. now for the 52 in case I can't get it when I'm ready to paint it next spring????
Canadian Poncho said
Nov 29, 2010
I think what he is saying is that you can do it with a princess auto blower and an infra-red thermometer. His disclaimer is that it should be done in a proper booth.
tin indian said
Nov 29, 2010
dualquadpete wrote:
Ok what you are saying is "your screwed" for painting at home without a proper booth witch "likely" none of us have!!!! Guess I'll order the paint & thinners etc. now for the 52 in case I can't get it when I'm ready to paint it next spring????
no need to worry, ppg makes a good quality low voc basecoat. its thier omni line. it sprays just as good as the regular voc paints. i painted 2 cars in my home shop last week. all i have at home is a squirrel cage to get the fumes out, good heat, lots of light, and a wet floor. the finish is just as good as the cars i paint in my bodyshop. here,s a couple of pics that shows the finish you can achieve in a makeshift booth
I think what he is saying is that you can do it with a princess auto blower and an infra-red thermometer. His disclaimer is that it should be done in a proper booth.
Thanks for clarifying 69Laurentian.
dualquadpete said
Nov 29, 2010
Don't laugh, I'm just getting into paint work,BUT, what's this VOC your talking about????
Laurentian said
Nov 29, 2010
dualquadpete wrote:
Don't laugh, I'm just getting into paint work,BUT, what's this VOC your talking about????
Don't worry I won't laugh. Just happy to be able to contribute to the discussion.
VOC =Volatile Organic Compounds, Basically the stuff that goes into the air as paint evaporates ie solvents (the stuff that mixes the paint and/or reduces or thins the paint to spraying viscosity). The Federal govt has set strict regulations as to how many VOCs can be in each refinish product. All products except for "Base coat" or "Color coat" were able to meet the regulations in solvent form. Base coat when the solvents were removed turned to the consistency of "Honey" and therefore could not be sprayed. So water and other unregulated solvents such as acetones and oxols became solvents of choice to meet the regulations.
In high population areas in Canada and the States each shop depending on their size and other criteria they get so many VOCs they can spray a day. In other words they have to keep track and record the amount of VOC's mixed and cannot spray any more than their daily limit. I'm not in one of those areas maybe someone else here could shed even more light on this topic as to exactly how counting of VOC's work.
I just found out today that there may even be a "VOC police" checking the shops to make sure that the products we are using are being used correctly which can be tracked through jobber sales records. When you mentioned about back yard spraying and the like, many jobbers are refusing to sell "across the counter" because of reasons such as I had listed not to mention fire regulations and OH&S. that is why I recommend spraying in a "legal booth." I know, it is getting harder and harder all the time just to do it all by yourself in your garage.
-- Edited by Laurentian on Monday 29th of November 2010 11:21:57 PM
Canadian Poncho said
Nov 30, 2010
When I was younger there was a "Fix it Yourself" garage in London. They had a paint booth you could rent on an hourly basis. These types of places seem to have disappeared. Too bad as they were a Godsend for me when I was a teenager who didn't have a garage!
Pontiacanada said
Nov 30, 2010
69Laurentian wrote:
When I was younger there was a "Fix it Yourself" garage in London. They had a paint booth you could rent on an hourly basis. These types of places seem to have disappeared. Too bad as they were a Godsend for me when I was a teenager who didn't have a garage!
They had one of those in Cobourg at one time also. It was full-service. Besides the shop time for painting, you could rent tools, hoists and all. Many shade-tree, bondo-buggies were built there!
68 427 said
Nov 30, 2010
69Laurentian wrote:
When I was younger there was a "Fix it Yourself" garage in London. They had a paint booth you could rent on an hourly basis. These types of places seem to have disappeared. Too bad as they were a Godsend for me when I was a teenager who didn't have a garage!
THERE IS STILL 1 OR 2 OF THESE TYPES OF SHOPS IN CALGARY. I HELPED A FRIEND PREP. A CAR FOR PAINT AT ONE A COUPLE YEARS AGO. THEY HAD A PAINTER AVALIBLE IF YOU DIDN'T FEEL YOU HAD THE SKILL TO SPRAY YOURSELF.
dualquadpete said
Nov 30, 2010
Boy, that brings back memorys from when I lived in Toronto, had one of those on Greenwood ave where the subway yard is now. Did alot of work in there & they had a Painter on standby as well if you needed help. Put many a "FOXCRAFT" floor shift in my cars at that location!!!!
64 SportWagon said
Sep 11, 2011
Todd are you talking about EARLS Fix it on first street? I painted a pile of cars there when i was younger.
69Laurentian wrote:
When I was younger there was a "Fix it Yourself" garage in London. They had a paint booth you could rent on an hourly basis. These types of places seem to have disappeared. Too bad as they were a Godsend for me when I was a teenager who didn't have a garage!
Canadian Poncho said
Sep 11, 2011
Actually they were on Third street. We did an engine swap as well as a number of other repairs there. Insurance regs must have shut down that business. Too bad as I bet they'd do well today. Need a tool? No problem. Just head over to the counter and ask for it. It was great!
There seems to be alot of talk these days on water based Automotive paints, Anyone have any knowhow with this? If you tried this and how do you like it?
It does take a little longer then solvent base but once you switch you would never go back. Water base can be sanded after a few minutes of blowing so its easy to get rid of imperfections in the paint before clear coating it. Colors are pretty good and i just clean my base coat gun with water!!
Down fall is you need a new water base gun, blowers and some heat helps.
If you are gonna try water MAKE SURE THE BASE IS DRY before clearing it. If you dont the clear will come off in sheets.
Dust nibs are "dry sanded" as wet sanding will wash the paint off. Careful, use a "low tack" tack rag to tack, as the varnish may cause fish eyes. I soap and water wash all pieces after masking and before entering the booth and spray everything in pieces therefore my cleaning and booth prep is greatly reduced with no "jamb lines". Masking and tape must be waterborne compliant and in some systems spray out cards are now steel as cardboard ones just shrivel up.
I have sprayed motorcycles tanks from turning on the booth to sealer to clear coat in 45mins without rushing a single flash time. In my mind it is the way automotive refinishing should have been over twenty years ago instead of introducing HVLP guns.
The Low VOC products work well but I have found the pot lives are greatly reduced to almost only enough time to mix, spray, and wash the gun. Re-mixing requires rinsing the gun between mixes. Surfacer=45 mins pot life at three coats with ten min flash time do the math on an overall job, it will be tight.
Some of the products that we are all well used to and have come to rely on might be phased out because they don't make the VOC cut. Don't worry compliant products will be there to replace them.
"If paint didn't work, They couldn't sell it"
All refinishing should be performed in a legal booth with all the safety guards in place.
VOC =Volatile Organic Compounds, Basically the stuff that goes into the air as paint evaporates ie solvents (the stuff that mixes the paint and/or reduces or thins the paint to spraying viscosity). The Federal govt has set strict regulations as to how many VOCs can be in each refinish product. All products except for "Base coat" or "Color coat" were able to meet the regulations in solvent form. Base coat when the solvents were removed turned to the consistency of "Honey" and therefore could not be sprayed. So water and other unregulated solvents such as acetones and oxols became solvents of choice to meet the regulations.
In high population areas in Canada and the States each shop depending on their size and other criteria they get so many VOCs they can spray a day. In other words they have to keep track and record the amount of VOC's mixed and cannot spray any more than their daily limit. I'm not in one of those areas maybe someone else here could shed even more light on this topic as to exactly how counting of VOC's work.
I just found out today that there may even be a "VOC police" checking the shops to make sure that the products we are using are being used correctly which can be tracked through jobber sales records. When you mentioned about back yard spraying and the like, many jobbers are refusing to sell "across the counter" because of reasons such as I had listed not to mention fire regulations and OH&S. that is why I recommend spraying in a "legal booth." I know, it is getting harder and harder all the time just to do it all by yourself in your garage.
-- Edited by Laurentian on Monday 29th of November 2010 11:21:57 PM