Out came the 2.56 open carrier and I finally got my nice used GM Corporate limited slip unit (the clutches still look new !) and used 3.23 gears installed in my 75 Grand Am with a new bearing kit and now it is howling... the professional shop that installed this told me it's because they are used gears ???
427carl said
Aug 3, 2011
pontorquer wrote:
because they are used gears ???
NO well most times they don't
-- Edited by 427carl on Saturday 29th of October 2011 08:16:09 AM
pontorquer said
Aug 3, 2011
Then I will go back and see if they can shim / tightened set them better...
67Poncho said
Aug 3, 2011
Actually, sometimes yes on used gears and once for me, new sets! I had an'86-ish style pick-up that no matter what I did, it howled. I replaced the pinion and case bearings, the backlash and the gear marking were dead on.... still, it howled. This was done at the dealer with the pinion depth gauge as well... I did it by the book!
I had an '88 GTA I put 2 sets of GM gears into and they howled..... Again, by the book! I went on a 2 week vacation back home to Newfoundland, I was working in Labrador then, hoping that someone else would finish it when I was gone.. Not an f'in chance... The S.O.B was waiting for me when I got back... Third set was a charm....
My diff in my Rag changes howl on accel and decel... But that was my fault... Ran it low on oil.... Still, 16 years later, it still howls be it a suttle howl more noticible with the top up!!
Just make sure it is not a bearing whine/howl instead!!!
pontorquer said
Aug 3, 2011
Howls on acceleration and deceleration too, maybe the diff on my 73 Grand Am parts car was low on oil at one point, now that I think of it, there wasn't much gear oil in it and real black... Oh Nooo ! Guess I 'll have to live with it till I find more cash for a new set of gears, the funny thing is myself and the shop guy look at the 3.23s and they look real good ... I was also thinking maybe a pinion depth backlash issue ??
rabbit64cs said
Aug 3, 2011
double check the pattern, I was wondering about the pinion depth setting as well? I have a heard of compensating the depth because of the used gears??
idears??
67Poncho said
Aug 3, 2011
rabbit64cs wrote:
double check the pattern, I was wondering about the pinion depth setting as well? I have a heard of compensating the depth because of the used gears??
idears??
Hopefully the guy would have done this!!!! Idears?? You sound like Paul Sr.!!!
rabbit64cs said
Aug 3, 2011
LOL !!
4SPEED427 said
Aug 3, 2011
pontorquer wrote:
Out came the 2.56 open carrier and I finally got my nice used GM Corporate limited slip unit (the clutches still look new !) and used 3.23 gears installed in my 75 Grand Am with a new bearing kit and now it is howling... the professional shop that installed this told me it's because they are used gears ???
A couple of questions---
1) Were the posi and 3.23 together previously or are they from to separate diffs?
2) Did they show you the pattern when they set it up? (Who installed it?)
3) Did you keep track of the shims when the posi/gears were removed from the other diff(s) ?
JC2+2 said
Aug 4, 2011
427carl wrote:
pontorquer wrote:
because they are used gears ???
NO
A Used set of Gears have worn in their pattern so will to be set up exactly as before or they will howl. The original shims are a good starting point if you've got. Also used Gears like the same backlash as before. Good rule of thumb is check the backlash before disassembly. But you never had that option. My advise to you if you don't have any original shims is: Set the pattern text book in the center of the gear and set the backlash on the high end of the spec or even a bit over spec. If the pinion depth is wrong, take a good used inner bearing and die grind the inside until it slides on and off by hand. Once set up is done, press on the new bearing. If you get it set close enough that the noise is very slight, it just may wear itself in. Or keep the carrier and buy new gears. Less hassle. Good luck.
pontorquer said
Aug 4, 2011
Posi from a different car than the 3.23 gears out of my 73 GA.
I kept the shim on the pinion and more were used from the new bearing kit.
He told me they set it right, they are the expert at Pro gear.
I will go back and we will take a test drive together, hopefully they can set them better ???
pontorquer said
Aug 4, 2011
Well, I went back to the shop at lunchtime and he took it for a test drive, he said there is nothing he can do about it and tried to sell me a new set of gears (double the price I can get 'em !). I asked him if he saw the gear pattern on the compound when they mesh them and he said you can't do this on a used set of gear, you got to do it by feel ??? I'm Not a happy camper !
rabbit64cs said
Aug 4, 2011
hmmm.....
my buddy did a used gear swap for a customer? no howl ,,,no complaints? not saying used gears may not give you a noise?
in your best interest...drop the cover and check the mesh pattern before you go any further ...
67Poncho said
Aug 4, 2011
pontorquer wrote:
I asked him if he saw the gear pattern on the compound when they mesh them and he said you can't do this on a used set of gear, you got to do it by feel ??? I'm Not a happy camper !
Sure you can.......... It is still a gear set... Next thing you know, we will be told that you can't plastigauge a used crank!!!
I can understand the "feel" part, for backlash. But backlash will still be present if the pinion depth is high or low and the side shims are adjusted accordingly..... Think he is passing the buck!
-- Edited by 67Poncho on Thursday 4th of August 2011 06:51:03 PM
JC2+2 said
Aug 4, 2011
A pattern can be taken on any set of gears new or used. I'll take a pattern check even with just a rebearing job on used gears. Can't do it or Won't do it. Sounds fishy to me.
4SPEED427 said
Aug 4, 2011
jc wrote:
A pattern can be taken on any set of gears new or used. I'll take a pattern check even with just a rebearing job on used gears. Can't do it or Won't do it. Sounds fishy to me.
Absolutely. If you can't take a pattern on a used set of gears, how could you know what to do with the shims?
pontorquer said
Aug 4, 2011
Money well spent... NOT ! Sad, why does this has to happen, I wanted a professionnal to do the job, I don't have the tools to do the job ie. dial indicator... this guy is often at carshow with a booth promoting is business... I trusted him.
rabbit64cs said
Aug 5, 2011
do your homwork first, drop the cover and check your mesh pattern, lots of pics on the net for what your looking for. THEN go back to him , and ask him to make it right...
an upset customer tells 100 people and anyone who will listen that he's not happy,, a Happy customer tells his friends...
pontorquer said
Aug 5, 2011
Ok will do, Thanks everyone ...
mfleury said
Oct 29, 2011
I HAD MINE HOWLING ALSO REPLACE DTHE PINION GEAR AND FIX THE PROGLEM
JC2+2 said
Oct 29, 2011
mfleury wrote:
I HAD MINE HOWLING ALSO REPLACE DTHE PINION GEAR AND FIX THE PROGLEM
That is weird! Should have howled worse. The ring and pinion gears are machined as a set and that is why they are only sold as a set. If changing one gear fixed the problem then you should be buying in on 649.
67Poncho said
Oct 29, 2011
jc wrote:
mfleury wrote:
I HAD MINE HOWLING ALSO REPLACE DTHE PINION GEAR AND FIX THE PROGLEM
That is weird! Should have howled worse. The ring and pinion gears are machined as a set and that is why they are only sold as a set. If changing one gear fixed the problem then you should be buying in on 649.
They were my thoughts exactly when I saw the post this morning... Maybe Martin made a typo and meant the crush sleeve, pinion shim or the bearings........
-- Edited by 67Poncho on Saturday 29th of October 2011 08:52:42 PM
mfleury said
Oct 30, 2011
no i had the howl mfor a couple of years even posted on the site for some ideas.
so i ended up buying another 66 complete rear axle with the rear end. it was a posi. which was no good to me so i just used the 2 big gears. before that i replaced all my bearing in wheels axles every thing still no good but i put in the 2 gears from the one i brought it took the howling away and its good now i even sold the posi and paid half of my rear end swap good deal i know a guy that does all that kind of work and only on old cars thats what he likes
67Poncho said
Oct 30, 2011
mfleury wrote:
no i had the howl mfor a couple of years even posted on the site for some ideas.
so i ended up buying another 66 complete rear axle with the rear end. it was a posi. which was no good to me so i just used the 2 big gears. before that i replaced all my bearing in wheels axles every thing still no good but i put in the 2 gears from the one i brought it took the howling away and its good now i even sold the posi and paid half of my rear end swap good deal i know a guy that does all that kind of work and only on old cars thats what he likes
OK, so you did replace as a set and not just the pinion! Makes better sense now!!!
Out came the 2.56 open carrier and I finally got my nice used GM Corporate limited slip unit (the clutches still look new !) and used 3.23 gears installed in my 75 Grand Am with a new bearing kit and now it is howling... the professional shop that installed this told me it's because they are used gears ???
NO
well most times they don't
-- Edited by 427carl on Saturday 29th of October 2011 08:16:09 AM
Then I will go back and see if they can shim / tightened set them better...
Actually, sometimes yes on used gears and once for me, new sets! I had an'86-ish style pick-up that no matter what I did, it howled. I replaced the pinion and case bearings, the backlash and the gear marking were dead on.... still, it howled. This was done at the dealer with the pinion depth gauge as well... I did it by the book!
I had an '88 GTA I put 2 sets of GM gears into and they howled..... Again, by the book! I went on a 2 week vacation back home to Newfoundland, I was working in Labrador then, hoping that someone else would finish it when I was gone.. Not an f'in chance... The S.O.B was waiting for me when I got back... Third set was a charm....
My diff in my Rag changes howl on accel and decel... But that was my fault... Ran it low on oil.... Still, 16 years later, it still howls be it a suttle howl more noticible with the top up!!
Just make sure it is not a bearing whine/howl instead!!!
Howls on acceleration and deceleration too, maybe the diff on my 73 Grand Am parts car was low on oil at one point, now that I think of it, there wasn't much gear oil in it and real black... Oh Nooo ! Guess I 'll have to live with it till I find more cash for a new set of gears, the funny thing is myself and the shop guy look at the 3.23s and they look real good ... I was also thinking maybe a pinion depth backlash issue ??
I have a heard of compensating the depth because of the used gears??
idears??
Hopefully the guy would have done this!!!! Idears?? You sound like Paul Sr.!!!
A couple of questions---
1) Were the posi and 3.23 together previously or are they from to separate diffs?
2) Did they show you the pattern when they set it up? (Who installed it?)
3) Did you keep track of the shims when the posi/gears were removed from the other diff(s) ?
A Used set of Gears have worn in their pattern so will to be set up exactly as before or they will howl. The original shims are a good starting point if you've got. Also used Gears like the same backlash as before. Good rule of thumb is check the backlash before disassembly. But you never had that option. My advise to you if you don't have any original shims is: Set the pattern text book in the center of the gear and set the backlash on the high end of the spec or even a bit over spec. If the pinion depth is wrong, take a good used inner bearing and die grind the inside until it slides on and off by hand. Once set up is done, press on the new bearing. If you get it set close enough that the noise is very slight, it just may wear itself in. Or keep the carrier and buy new gears. Less hassle. Good luck.
Posi from a different car than the 3.23 gears out of my 73 GA.
I kept the shim on the pinion and more were used from the new bearing kit.
He told me they set it right, they are the expert at Pro gear.
I will go back and we will take a test drive together, hopefully they can set them better ???
Well, I went back to the shop at lunchtime and he took it for a test drive, he said there is nothing he can do about it and tried to sell me a new set of gears (double the price I can get 'em !). I asked him if he saw the gear pattern on the compound when they mesh them and he said you can't do this on a used set of gear, you got to do it by feel ??? I'm Not a happy camper !
my buddy did a used gear swap for a customer? no howl ,,,no complaints? not saying used gears may not give you a noise?
in your best interest...drop the cover and check the mesh pattern before you go any further ...
Sure you can.......... It is still a gear set... Next thing you know, we will be told that you can't plastigauge a used crank!!!
I can understand the "feel" part, for backlash. But backlash will still be present if the pinion depth is high or low and the side shims are adjusted accordingly..... Think he is passing the buck!
-- Edited by 67Poncho on Thursday 4th of August 2011 06:51:03 PM
A pattern can be taken on any set of gears new or used. I'll take a pattern check even with just a rebearing job on used gears. Can't do it or Won't do it. Sounds fishy to me.
Absolutely. If you can't take a pattern on a used set of gears, how could you know what to do with the shims?
Money well spent... NOT ! Sad, why does this has to happen, I wanted a professionnal to do the job, I don't have the tools to do the job ie. dial indicator... this guy is often at carshow with a booth promoting is business... I trusted him.
an upset customer tells 100 people and anyone who will listen that he's not happy,, a Happy customer tells his friends...
Ok will do, Thanks everyone ...
I HAD MINE HOWLING ALSO REPLACE DTHE PINION GEAR AND FIX THE PROGLEM
That is weird! Should have howled worse. The ring and pinion gears are machined as a set and that is why they are only sold as a set. If changing one gear fixed the problem then you should be buying in on 649.
They were my thoughts exactly when I saw the post this morning... Maybe Martin made a typo and meant the crush sleeve, pinion shim or the bearings........
-- Edited by 67Poncho on Saturday 29th of October 2011 08:52:42 PM
no i had the howl mfor a couple of years even posted on the site for some ideas.
so i ended up buying another 66 complete rear axle with the rear end. it was a posi. which was no good to me so i just used the 2 big gears. before that i replaced all my bearing in wheels axles every thing still no good but i put in the 2 gears from the one i brought it took the howling away and its good now i even sold the posi and paid half of my rear end swap good deal i know a guy that does all that kind of work and only on old cars thats what he likes
OK, so you did replace as a set and not just the pinion! Makes better sense now!!!