1969 Pontiac 2+2 427/390 Convertible Barn find - But this one a 4-speed
davepl said
Dec 5, 2016
Every year or so I make another run at buying the "barn find" car in Alberta that I stumbled across, a 427 4-speed Convertible 2+2, red on red. It could be one of one, as I've never seen another. He's probably given up on the dream of restoring it one day, knows I restore my projects to a high level, and seems comfortable letting it go. No discussion of price, but since he keeps saying it's the "last one" out there, he's probably not giving it away.
I gave some parts (emblems and stuff) that the fellow who owns it needed, he reached out to me maybe (8?) years ago when he was going to restore it, found my website. So that's how I came to know about the car.
I'd like to ask if anyone knows anything about this car or any others like it that might have ever existed, so I guess my questions is "Does anyone know anything about a 1969 427 4-speed Convertible 2+2"?
I think the car spent the bulk of its life in Edmonton, and the original owner traded it in only about 10 years ago, so someone in that region would have seen it at some time you'd think! But since it hasn't been bought and sold, it hasn't crosses the Internet yet.
Looks to be Carousel Red under the Matador Red, but I don't know the original color other than "red" as I've not seen the cowl tag yet. Supposedly the car is documented, but I haven't seen the docs. That air cleaner lid is harder to forge than the paperwork though!
-- Edited by davepl on Monday 5th of December 2016 12:36:51 PM
I have no idea what it looks like today though - the body was pulled and I think chemically dipped, the frame was powdercoated and the motor rebuilt, so far as I understand. Kind of a weird order to do things in, unless you're just putting off dealing with the body... the rear of which looks pretty tough.
If I can get the car I'll need quarters, I can guess that much! Full on one side, maybe partial on the other. And they all need front quarters thanks to the useless "Astro Jet Dry A-Pillars" or whatever they called it.
North said
Dec 5, 2016
Quarters interchange with short wheelbase American cars (Catalina) but fenders are only Canadian.
seventy2plus2 said
Dec 5, 2016
If you need someone to go take a look at the car, I could always zip up to Edmonton from Calgary for you.
davepl said
Dec 6, 2016
Thanks! My old neighbor does autobody and lives in Edmonton so I think I'm covered, but I appreciate that. Right now that challenge is getting the guy to receive a visitor, not the other way around. This car isn't his top priority, obviously... but anyone who's been down this path of trying to get someone who doesn't want to sell a vehicle to sell it knows the story.
davepl said
Dec 7, 2016
Got the VIN and a blurry pic of the protecto plate. Also got the numbers off the motor. The casting number is right (1969 427) and the VIN matches.
The other number on the block is T1220LA
T - Tonawada 12 - December 20 - December 20 LA 1969 Chevrolet 427/390 Manual Trans High Perf
So far it all checks out!
-- Edited by davepl on Wednesday 7th of December 2016 01:45:36 PM
4SPEED427 said
Dec 7, 2016
Wow... Keep at it! What a great find.
4SPEED427 said
Dec 7, 2016
Are you going to get it documented? I would think it's well worth the cost of paperwork for a car like that, just to be safe.
davepl said
Dec 7, 2016
Sent the VIN off to Vintage Vehicle Services this morning, should have the docs on Friday, will report back! Yay for Canadian documentation! I also emailed them asking if they could maybe do a little extra digging for me on production stats, but if it's all Microfiche that's really not possible.
Does anyone know how the date coding works? 12/20/1968 would work (car was delivered in Sept 69) but 12/20/1969 would put the motor produced after the car. So I assume 68, but don't know if that's implied by the "Application" code, which is 1969 Chevrolet.
-- Edited by davepl on Wednesday 7th of December 2016 04:54:59 PM
4SPEED427 said
Dec 7, 2016
Yes, it will be 12/20/68. Most likely the car will be built sometime in January 69 but that's a guess. There certainly have been exceptions to the engine date rules on documented cars, and seemingly more so on big block cars.
seventy2plus2 said
Dec 7, 2016
I'm not sure what the comment "car was delivered in Sept 69" means. Is that when someone bought it and it left the dealer lot? (from the Protect-O-Plate)
By looking at the engine stamping, I'd agree with Carl that the engine was assembled Dec 20 1968, for the 1969 model year. I'd also guess the vehicle was assembled sometime in January 1969. As such, the VIN sequential should be around 15000 or so (but that's just a guess).
4SPEED427 said
Dec 7, 2016
I'm assuming he means the owner took delivery of the car Sept 69 even thought it was likely built in January. I wonder if the dealer drove it in the meantime or something? A car like that sure wasn't ordered for regular dealer inventory!
davepl said
Dec 8, 2016
I've seen big blocks six to eight months prior to the vehicle build date. I know my GMC truck was like that.
In-service date on the car is Sept 8, 1969. I don't know the car's build date, but the last digits of the VIN are 1141XXX, so 41,000? This car would be at the end of the run, right?
That's all I know right now. Engine made before car, which is good.
I got a feeling someone wasn't stoked about the 1970 model revisions perhaps (that's what happened to my Dad, he bought a very late 69). Or why someone would order this fully loaded, rather rare and expensive 2+2 convertible at the very of of a model year heading into winter in Edmonton is anyone's guess! I've got the guy's name, I guess I could track him down and see if he's still alive!
If the Protecto-Plate decodes the same as a Chevelle, then in the upper right there is an R for carburetor source and a 4 for build month, which is April. So now I want the story of why a car like this built in April sat around until September, assuming that's the case.
-- Edited by davepl on Thursday 8th of December 2016 12:05:41 PM
I once bought a fairly rare car built in April 1981 and I was the first owner and I found it squirrelled away in the back of the dealer's basement showroom in March of 1982. It was ordered in as a display model but never sold. Black on Black 1981 XII. It needed a few front end repairs when they did the PDI from sitting. Then there's the 1970 Judge Convertible I documented on the claim it was a one owner car. Car was newly delivered to Old Mill in fall of 1969 but sold to first owner November 1970. Turns out the dealer kept it all year driving it around and displaying in showroom. It had to be sold on a Used Car contract.
Canadian Poncho said
Dec 8, 2016
Car could have been a manager or salesman's demo at the dealership. After it was miled out it would have gone back on the lot. I may be wrong but I think back then the car didn't get an inservice date until it was sold to an actual customer.
davepl said
Dec 8, 2016
Yep, I think you're right at least that the in-service date didn't happen until a customer bought it and the protecto-plate was completed. The in-service date I'm using is the one on the Protecto-Plate card, so it kind of has to be.
I'm on the new Z06 Corvette forums and guys are religious about getting their cars with near-zero miles. No one would touch a demonstrator, and now here I am trying to buy a 50 year old basket case of one!
MoboMac said
Dec 8, 2016
It prolly was a zone office car.....which meant that it was used as a company car/perk....for a zone office manager.....until it was a year old or miled out...as a "demo"......then a local dealer would sell it as a "lightly" used car....
I have several....that have been through that program....
73SC said
Dec 8, 2016
MoboMac wrote:
It prolly was a zone office car.....which meant that it was used as a company car/perk....for a zone office manager.....until it was a year old or miled out...as a "demo"......then a local dealer would sell it as a "lightly" used car....
I have several....that have been through that program....
Actually my son in law is driving one now, the dealer principal's car while he waits on his new one arriving. Its got a regular licence plate on it not some dealer plate. It's got 8,900 km on it. It can't be termed lightly used after he gave me the keys though :) btw is gotta be one of the fastest full sized sedans I have ever driven, a Nissan Maxima, it can trot to 60 in 5.8 sec and rip off low 14's quarter mile at 100 MPH.
Canadian Poncho said
Dec 8, 2016
Demo's these days get an inservice date as soon as a salesman plates it.
North said
Dec 8, 2016
I've never owned a Japanese car (some really bad stuff was done to some of my family members during the war by them) but I remember back in the 80's and 90's that Maxima's were an in car, lots of 40ish mid management types drove them, they had a clean look. Now you rarely see current models and when you do they are very hard on the eyes, looks like a school kid on acid designed them!
seventy2plus2 said
Dec 8, 2016
davepl wrote:
I've seen big blocks six to eight months prior to the vehicle build date. I know my GMC truck was like that.
In-service date on the car is Sept 8, 1969. I don't know the car's build date, but the last digits of the VIN are 1141XXX, so 41,000? This car would be at the end of the run, right?
That's all I know right now. Engine made before car, which is good.
I got a feeling someone wasn't stoked about the 1970 model revisions perhaps (that's what happened to my Dad, he bought a very late 69). Or why someone would order this fully loaded, rather rare and expensive 2+2 convertible at the very of of a model year heading into winter in Edmonton is anyone's guess! I've got the guy's name, I guess I could track him down and see if he's still alive!
If the Protecto-Plate decodes the same as a Chevelle, then in the upper right there is an R for carburetor source and a 4 for build month, which is April. So now I want the story of why a car like this built in April sat around until September, assuming that's the case.
-- Edited by davepl on Thursday 8th of December 2016 12:05:41 PM
A few things:
- Your GM Documentation confirmed your 41,000 VIN sequential as being late in the production run.
- I'm sure you know your transmission & differential stampings are also on the Protect-O-Plate.
- I've seen a few different Protect-O-Plates cards. Black (like the one photographed), blue & green.
davepl said
Dec 8, 2016
I can't see trans info (though it's implied as Manual by the LA engine suffix), and I don't know how to decode what I assume is the rear end BK022BK. Can anyone else?
seventy2plus2 said
Dec 8, 2016
Differential looks like BK022BK. Trans code looks like P9B19.
I've got to run out for a bit but will take a closer look and decode later.
A partial VIN will also be stamped into the transmission case, similar to the one stamped on the engine.
-- Edited by seventy2plus2 on Thursday 8th of December 2016 09:10:30 PM
Every year or so I make another run at buying the "barn find" car in Alberta that I stumbled across, a 427 4-speed Convertible 2+2, red on red. It could be one of one, as I've never seen another. He's probably given up on the dream of restoring it one day, knows I restore my projects to a high level, and seems comfortable letting it go. No discussion of price, but since he keeps saying it's the "last one" out there, he's probably not giving it away.
I gave some parts (emblems and stuff) that the fellow who owns it needed, he reached out to me maybe (8?) years ago when he was going to restore it, found my website. So that's how I came to know about the car.
I'd like to ask if anyone knows anything about this car or any others like it that might have ever existed, so I guess my questions is "Does anyone know anything about a 1969 427 4-speed Convertible 2+2"?
I think the car spent the bulk of its life in Edmonton, and the original owner traded it in only about 10 years ago, so someone in that region would have seen it at some time you'd think! But since it hasn't been bought and sold, it hasn't crosses the Internet yet.
Looks to be Carousel Red under the Matador Red, but I don't know the original color other than "red" as I've not seen the cowl tag yet. Supposedly the car is documented, but I haven't seen the docs. That air cleaner lid is harder to forge than the paperwork though!
-- Edited by davepl on Monday 5th of December 2016 12:36:51 PM
Might as well post some pictures.
If I can get the car I'll need quarters, I can guess that much! Full on one side, maybe partial on the other. And they all need front quarters thanks to the useless "Astro Jet Dry A-Pillars" or whatever they called it.
If you need someone to go take a look at the car, I could always zip up to Edmonton from Calgary for you.
Got the VIN and a blurry pic of the protecto plate. Also got the numbers off the motor. The casting number is right (1969 427) and the VIN matches.
The other number on the block is T1220LA
T - Tonawada
12 - December
20 - December 20
LA 1969 Chevrolet 427/390 Manual Trans High Perf
So far it all checks out!
-- Edited by davepl on Wednesday 7th of December 2016 01:45:36 PM
Sent the VIN off to Vintage Vehicle Services this morning, should have the docs on Friday, will report back! Yay for Canadian documentation! I also emailed them asking if they could maybe do a little extra digging for me on production stats, but if it's all Microfiche that's really not possible.
Does anyone know how the date coding works? 12/20/1968 would work (car was delivered in Sept 69) but 12/20/1969 would put the motor produced after the car. So I assume 68, but don't know if that's implied by the "Application" code, which is 1969 Chevrolet.
-- Edited by davepl on Wednesday 7th of December 2016 04:54:59 PM
I'm not sure what the comment "car was delivered in Sept 69" means. Is that when someone bought it and it left the dealer lot? (from the Protect-O-Plate)
By looking at the engine stamping, I'd agree with Carl that the engine was assembled Dec 20 1968, for the 1969 model year. I'd also guess the vehicle was assembled sometime in January 1969. As such, the VIN sequential should be around 15000 or so (but that's just a guess).
I've seen big blocks six to eight months prior to the vehicle build date. I know my GMC truck was like that.
In-service date on the car is Sept 8, 1969. I don't know the car's build date, but the last digits of the VIN are 1141XXX, so 41,000? This car would be at the end of the run, right?
That's all I know right now. Engine made before car, which is good.
I got a feeling someone wasn't stoked about the 1970 model revisions perhaps (that's what happened to my Dad, he bought a very late 69). Or why someone would order this fully loaded, rather rare and expensive 2+2 convertible at the very of of a model year heading into winter in Edmonton is anyone's guess! I've got the guy's name, I guess I could track him down and see if he's still alive!
If the Protecto-Plate decodes the same as a Chevelle, then in the upper right there is an R for carburetor source and a 4 for build month, which is April. So now I want the story of why a car like this built in April sat around until September, assuming that's the case.
-- Edited by davepl on Thursday 8th of December 2016 12:05:41 PM
I once bought a fairly rare car built in April 1981 and I was the first owner and I found it squirrelled away in the back of the dealer's basement showroom in March of 1982. It was ordered in as a display model but never sold. Black on Black 1981 XII. It needed a few front end repairs when they did the PDI from sitting. Then there's the 1970 Judge Convertible I documented on the claim it was a one owner car. Car was newly delivered to Old Mill in fall of 1969 but sold to first owner November 1970. Turns out the dealer kept it all year driving it around and displaying in showroom. It had to be sold on a Used Car contract.
I'm on the new Z06 Corvette forums and guys are religious about getting their cars with near-zero miles. No one would touch a demonstrator, and now here I am trying to buy a 50 year old basket case of one!
It prolly was a zone office car.....which meant that it was used as a company car/perk....for a zone office manager.....until it was a year old or miled out...as a "demo"......then a local dealer would sell it as a "lightly" used car....
I have several....that have been through that program....
Actually my son in law is driving one now, the dealer principal's car while he waits on his new one arriving. Its got a regular licence plate on it not some dealer plate. It's got 8,900 km on it. It can't be termed lightly used after he gave me the keys though :) btw is gotta be one of the fastest full sized sedans I have ever driven, a Nissan Maxima, it can trot to 60 in 5.8 sec and rip off low 14's quarter mile at 100 MPH.
I've never owned a Japanese car (some really bad stuff was done to some of my family members during the war by them) but I remember back in the 80's and 90's that Maxima's were an in car, lots of 40ish mid management types drove them, they had a clean look. Now you rarely see current models and when you do they are very hard on the eyes, looks like a school kid on acid designed them!
A few things:
- Your GM Documentation confirmed your 41,000 VIN sequential as being late in the production run.
- I'm sure you know your transmission & differential stampings are also on the Protect-O-Plate.
- I've seen a few different Protect-O-Plates cards. Black (like the one photographed), blue & green.
Differential looks like BK022BK. Trans code looks like P9B19.
I've got to run out for a bit but will take a closer look and decode later.
A partial VIN will also be stamped into the transmission case, similar to the one stamped on the engine.
-- Edited by seventy2plus2 on Thursday 8th of December 2016 09:10:30 PM