Enjoy 5% OFF at VEVOR Canada! and Support Canadian Poncho at the Same Time!
Members Login
Username 
 
Password 
    Remember Me  
Post Info TOPIC: Canadian Pontiac Lemans '73 - '77 - How do they differ from US versions?
MC


Canadian Poncho Superstar!

Status: Offline
Posts: 7608
Date:
Canadian Pontiac Lemans '73 - '77 - How do they differ from US versions?


Back in '83 I had a '73 Lemans coupe with a 350 Chevy in it, 27,000 original miles.  From what I've seen, the only differences between the Canadian and the US versions was the availability of the small block Chevy in the Pontiac in the earlier years, but maybe even that changed later on.

Any thoughts on that?  Plus, were these cars still being built in Canada at that time?

Thanks!smile

__________________


A Poncho Legend!

Status: Offline
Posts: 27207
Date:

I seem to remember the dash on my dads 77 LeMans Sport Coupe was different than the U.S version. Can anyone verify?


__________________

Todd
Site Founder

Like us on Facebook. http://www.facebook.com/CanadianPoncho

Canadian Poncho World Headquarters - Prince Edward Island

 

Fall into savings UP TO C $50 OFF Shop now
Fall into savings UP TO C $50 OFF Shop now


A Poncho Legend!

Status: Offline
Posts: 20150
Date:

The primary difference was the Chevrolet V8. In 1973 & 74 Canadian built cars got either a 2bbl or 4bbl with duals, 350 Chevy. Chevy 350 was availble up to 1977 but by that time it was a corporate V8. 305 was also available in Canada. In US cars had only a 2bbl 350 Pontiac available in 73 then later versions had 260 Olds or 301 Pontiac V8's as well. Both countries offered 400 and 455 Pontiac engines but 455 ended in 75 I believe. 400 in 76 but not 77 I think. Safaris would continue with large motors longer.

Oshawa was the production facility for Canadian cars and also included GTO's in 73.

There were minor variations in dash and interior trim and seat patterns. Remember metric speedometers in Canada after 74 too. Primarily the dash cluster was the same as Firebird's although Grand Am and Grand LeMans clusters were direct from the Grand Prix, (ditto Can Am). There were also different models available in Canada and US. For example the Can Am was never offered for sale in Canada. The Canada Cup GT and 76 Olympic models also come to mind as Canada only cars. Also a very rare Quebec market Blue and White GT offered at same time as Canada Cup car.

All Canadian cars carry a Z49 option code which stipulates Manadatory Canadian Equipment. I can't state for sure what that was from year to year but you will see that code on all documentation for Canadian built and sold cars. Oshawa did export cars to Australia which had amber in the tail light signals as well as the US so it is not that uncommon to see a Pontiac 350 in a Oshawa built car exported to neighbouring states like New York and Michigan.

Doing this from memory, may be more details if I sat down with my reference materials.





-- Edited by 73SC on Wednesday 15th of December 2010 01:08:22 AM

__________________

Ray White, Toronto ON

1973 LeMans 454 "Astro-Jet"

Built March 9, 1973 - Oshawa ON

1993 Corvette Convertible LT 1

Built January 10, 1993 - Bowling Green Kentucky 

 


MC


Canadian Poncho Superstar!

Status: Offline
Posts: 7608
Date:

Thanks for the info. So as suspected there still were differences but they became more subtle as the seventies rolled along. Still one of my favourite all time body styles, despite their apparent lack of popularity among the general populous.

__________________


A Poncho Legend!

Status: Offline
Posts: 20150
Date:

For sure subtle, just remembered that the battery tray on Canadian orange engined cars is on the right side with washer bottle on the left to accomodate alternator on right side of Chevy engine. Pontiac engine has it the other way round.

If you like them as I do you are in the minority. When I park at a cruise I can tell you that virtually nobody stops to look at my car, I've stood back and watched, they walk right on past. It doesn't really bother me though, it qualifies me to get in and look at all the others. You can purchase them very cheap BUT there are no restoration parts reproduced so beware. smile

-- Edited by 73SC at 18:55, 2008-05-22

__________________

Ray White, Toronto ON

1973 LeMans 454 "Astro-Jet"

Built March 9, 1973 - Oshawa ON

1993 Corvette Convertible LT 1

Built January 10, 1993 - Bowling Green Kentucky 

 




Poncho Master!

Status: Offline
Posts: 2672
Date:

73SC wrote:

 Primarily the dash cluster was the same as Firebird's although Grand Am and Grand LeMans clusters were direct from the Grand Prix, (ditto Can Am). -- Edited by 73SC at 13:13, 2008-05-22



Are you sure about that?  I have never seen a Lemans, Canadian or US built with anything other than a Lemans dash, i.e., like the 74 Grand Lemans for sale has.  A friend of mine in high school factory ordered a new 75 Lemans.  It came from Oshawa with the Chevy 350 2bbl and it certainly had the Lemans dash.



__________________
Hillar

1970 LS4 (eventually an LS5) Laurentian 2dr hdtp
-and a bunch of other muscle cars...


A Poncho Legend!

Status: Offline
Posts: 20150
Date:

I am sure but not making myself clear. I'll try to clarify, the Firebird and the LeMans 73-77 share the same cluster layout from 1970 to 1981 Firebirds with three main pods with Speedo, Idiot Lights/Clock /Tach and small fuel. Firebirds had an additional two pods to the centre of the dash for oil and water guages, idiot lights if not ordered on left pod. LeMans Rally had Tach on left with Gen light, fuel, oil, water in small pod and Speedo on right. Firebird and LeMans clusters interchange, in fact I am running a 1973 Firebird cluster in my 73 LeMans, Clock with idiot lights on left, fuel in small centre and 160 mph speedometer on the right.

Confused yet? There are three and probably four styles of LeMans clusters if you count optional clock. Standard has idiot lights on left, fuel in centre, Speedo on right. Rally clock puts a big clock in left, guages in small centre. Rally Guages puts Tach with clock and Gen light on left, fuel, oil pressure, water in small centre and Speedo on right. Optional clock lets you add a small clock to the idiot lights on left like the photo below.

In 1976 the Grand LeMans got the Grand Prix cluster or Grand Am cluster depending on your point of view. Two Large pods left and right with four small pods in centre. Can Am's also have this. Clock or Tach on left, speedo on right, fuel, water, volts, oil in four small pods. This was also optional on Sport Coupe in Canada in 77. Sometimes the tach or clock was replaced with a vaccum guage in 77 labeled as Power on one end and Economy on the other. They even worked the Vaccum guage into the standard LeMans cluster with a small clock on the left pod.

So yes, the 74 is a LeMans dash but the cluster interchanges with Firebird.
Also just a note on Model names. The 74 is a Luxury LeMans not a Grand Lemans. The Grand LeMans name was used after the demise of the Grand Am thereby explaining why the Grand LeMans got the Grand Am interior


In photos you see LeMans on Left Firebird on Right. the cluster is identical.

These links shows a dash pad and bezel for sale listed in description as Grand Prix, Grand Am and Grand LeMans, best I can do on short notice!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1976-GRAND-PRIX-DASH-PAD-1975-GRAND-AM-1974-1973-1977


http://cgi.ebay.ca/1973-77-Dash-Grand-Prix-Grand-Am-GTO-Lemans_W0QQitemZ260157621843QQihZ016QQcategoryZ10076QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1638Q2em118Q2el1247

I can show you some time Hillar as I have sales and option booklets. Sorry if this is all confusing but I know this stuff cold for this era of LeMans, have owned 3 (73, 73, 76) & 76 FB plus one 73 GA in family and two GP's, (73,77) 



-- Edited by 73SC at 22:43, 2008-05-22

Attachments
__________________

Ray White, Toronto ON

1973 LeMans 454 "Astro-Jet"

Built March 9, 1973 - Oshawa ON

1993 Corvette Convertible LT 1

Built January 10, 1993 - Bowling Green Kentucky 

 


Fall into savings UP TO C $50 OFF Shop now
Fall into savings UP TO C $50 OFF Shop now


A Poncho Legend!

Status: Offline
Posts: 20150
Date:

Here are a couple of shots of my cluster. I can guarantee you, no 73 LeMans left the factory with a 160 mph speedo. This cluster is out of a 1973 Firebird Esprit, base cluster with clock option because it has the fuel guage in the centre and idiot lights. I bought it on eBay for $15.00. It was a floor shift car so we had to make the decal for my shift pattern by scanning the original one. 65 Camino and I worked on it one winter night. It was dremelled a bit to adapt the shift indicator. It is calibrated properly as well and we set the odometer to my original one. I'll also say that it was a straight plug in with the wiring harness too. If my car was a floor shift it would have popped right in with no mods.

-- Edited by 73SC at 22:49, 2008-05-22

Attachments
__________________

Ray White, Toronto ON

1973 LeMans 454 "Astro-Jet"

Built March 9, 1973 - Oshawa ON

1993 Corvette Convertible LT 1

Built January 10, 1993 - Bowling Green Kentucky 

 


MC


Canadian Poncho Superstar!

Status: Offline
Posts: 7608
Date:

73SC wrote:

For sure subtle, just remembered that the battery tray on Canadian orange engined cars is on the right side with washer bottle on the left to accomodate alternator on right side of Chevy engine. Pontiac engine has it the other way round.

If you like them as I do you are in the minority. When I park at a cruise I can tell you that virtually nobody stops to look at my car, I've stood back and watched, they walk right on past. It doesn't really bother me though, it qualifies me to get in and look at all the others. You can purchase them very cheap BUT there are no restoration parts reproduced so beware. smile

-- Edited by 73SC at 18:55, 2008-05-22



Thanks, I've never been very mainstream in my automotive tastes and to be honest I've never really cared whether other people like my car, but also the fact that the '73 Lemans was my favourite high school car gives them special status with me.

I've heard about the lack of repro parts for these, but I've always been old school in the hobby and am accustomed to digging up parts the hard way.

If I find a good one some day, I might just go for it!

 



__________________


A Poncho Legend!

Status: Offline
Posts: 20150
Date:

MC wrote:

Thanks, I've never been very mainstream in my automotive tastes and to be honest I've never really cared whether other people like my car, but also the fact that the '73 Lemans was my favourite high school car gives them special status with me.

I've heard about the lack of repro parts for these, but I've always been old school in the hobby and am accustomed to digging up parts the hard way.

If I find a good one some day, I might just go for it!



I'm with you, I learned to drive on my Dad's 73 Sport Coupe and our Driver Ed cars at Leaside high school were 74 LeMans and 74 Regals supplied by Rumble Pontiac Buick in Leaside. My car, the one in the Avatar, has the Rumble nameplate on it. It was sold at that dealership on March 19, 1973. Finding the parts is a big part of the fun of having these cars. As you see from my 160 speedo instal above I'm more concerned with fun than originality but like to stay true to the era and what might have been. I have met a lot of nice people through finding parts for this car, pretty much from Bonavista to Vancouver Island! add in Iowa, Cali and New York state too. Mucked through a few salvage yards too. smile

__________________

Ray White, Toronto ON

1973 LeMans 454 "Astro-Jet"

Built March 9, 1973 - Oshawa ON

1993 Corvette Convertible LT 1

Built January 10, 1993 - Bowling Green Kentucky 

 




Poncho Master!

Status: Offline
Posts: 2672
Date:

73SC wrote:

Here are a couple of shots of my cluster. I can guarantee you, no 73 LeMans left the factory with a 160 mph speedo. This cluster is out of a 1973 Firebird Esprit, base cluster with clock option because it has the fuel guage in the centre and idiot lights. I bought it on eBay for $15.00. It was a floor shift car so we had to make the decal for my shift pattern by scanning the original one. 65 Camino and I worked on it one winter night. It was dremelled a bit to adapt the shift indicator. It is calibrated properly as well and we set the odometer to my original one. I'll also say that it was a straight plug in with the wiring harness too. If my car was a floor shift it would have popped right in with no mods.

-- Edited by 73SC at 22:49, 2008-05-22



Kewl!  I'll have to check it out in person if I ever manage to make it out to Eglinton Square; it just seems like every Wed. night I have something booked.

Just wondering, if you were going to go to all this trouble to change the cluster, why didn't you wait until you could find a rally cluster with the tach?
I know, you were probably worried about hitting a 160 mph before that!biggrin
Also, how did you calibrate it?



__________________
Hillar

1970 LS4 (eventually an LS5) Laurentian 2dr hdtp
-and a bunch of other muscle cars...


A Poncho Legend!

Status: Offline
Posts: 20150
Date:

Astro Jet wrote:
Just wondering, if you were going to go to all this trouble to change the cluster, why didn't you wait until you could find a rally cluster with the tach?
I know, you were probably worried about hitting a 160 mph before that!biggrin
Also, how did you calibrate it?


Those clusters with tachs are LeMans specific because you need a Gen light in the tach.  Firebird tachs don't have that. The Lemans tachs go for $200 + and basically it's not worth that much to me. Ok I'm cheap! If I saw one for 40 bucks I'd get it. It isn't really a lot of trouble getting the cluster in and out. I usually drop the column about an inch, 2 bolts, then take out about 4 screws from the metal retaining plate below dash, 6 screws hold in the bezel and you're there, 4 screws hold the cluster. I have a period tach mounted beside my column that I found covered in dust in 65Camino's garage that does the trick.
 
As for calibration since it is from an Esprit I didn't do anything, got lucky I suppose, same wheel and tire size, same rear end, same tranny.

There is no chance of this car hitting 160 unless we are talking kph. Honestly, had it up to just a tick past 115 mph on the original speedo, not sure there's any more in it but I ran out of highway to see. It makes a lot of good noises getting there though.



__________________

Ray White, Toronto ON

1973 LeMans 454 "Astro-Jet"

Built March 9, 1973 - Oshawa ON

1993 Corvette Convertible LT 1

Built January 10, 1993 - Bowling Green Kentucky 

 


Fall into savings UP TO C $50 OFF Shop now
Fall into savings UP TO C $50 OFF Shop now


A Poncho Legend!

Status: Offline
Posts: 35601
Date:

I love 73 Lemans    mine was FAST and smooth and quiet   We loved it...We bought it on a trip 'home" to Sackville N.B. The dealer made a big deal about it being only 1 of 2 in N.B   I forgot about the stripes, until I looked up old pictures..   I bid on the '74 up to 6600   I wonder if I will get 2ND CHANCE OFFER FROM SELLER?idea  guess not  I just looked and it went to 7900.00 and it didnt meet reserve..

-- Edited by 427carl at 00:27, 2008-05-24

-- Edited by 427carl at 00:28, 2008-05-24

-- Edited by 427carl at 00:31, 2008-05-24

Attachments
__________________

 



A Poncho Legend!

Status: Offline
Posts: 20150
Date:

Said it before C2, your car was almost identical to my Dad's the car I learned to drive on. I recall that a few days after picking it up in September 1972 we got stopped by the Police. Dad wasn't doing anything wrong, the Constable just wanted to look at the car.

It was a fast and smooth car and well handling too. We'd all race our Dad's cars on the street back then and our LeMans was King. One buddy still gets p'd to this day, his Dad's was a 4dr. 74 Cutlass with a rated 200 HP Rocket 350 and the Poncho always walked away with that Chevy 350 and duals. Another buddy's dad had a 71 Satalite Sebring, no problem for the LeMans. There was also a 64 Dynamic 88 394 that was embarrassed every time too and we can add in a 69 Chevelle 307 that was just too weak to keep up.

I just poke at my current 73, it is likely as fast if not faster than our original and those who ride in it now do comment on how quiet it is for how it is set up. That hood with two big holes really roars when you stand on it, open element air cleaner and rumbling exhaust too, but at 70 mph you can carry on a nice conversation.

__________________

Ray White, Toronto ON

1973 LeMans 454 "Astro-Jet"

Built March 9, 1973 - Oshawa ON

1993 Corvette Convertible LT 1

Built January 10, 1993 - Bowling Green Kentucky 

 




A Poncho Legend!

Status: Offline
Posts: 27207
Date:

I've always liked the taillight treatment on the 73's. Dad's 77 was the most reliable car we ever owned. I don't recall it ever breaking down (even with a then 16 year old taking it cruising several times a week). Fuel economy was decent with that 4bbl 350.

__________________

Todd
Site Founder

Like us on Facebook. http://www.facebook.com/CanadianPoncho

Canadian Poncho World Headquarters - Prince Edward Island

 



Poncho Master!

Status: Offline
Posts: 2672
Date:

73SC wrote:



-- Edited by 73SC at 01:56, 2008-05-24

Something missing here?confused



__________________
Hillar

1970 LS4 (eventually an LS5) Laurentian 2dr hdtp
-and a bunch of other muscle cars...
MC


Canadian Poncho Superstar!

Status: Offline
Posts: 7608
Date:

Here was my '73. Owned it in '83 when I was in high school. Other than some minor rust issues it was a real creampuff. 27000 miles, mint interior, original paint, 350 Chev 2bbl. Just a nice clean tight car. Sold it to help fund university - I still remember the lump in my throat as I watched it drive away. I still really miss it!



-- Edited by MC at 20:19, 2008-05-25

__________________
Fall into savings UP TO C $50 OFF Shop now
Fall into savings UP TO C $50 OFF Shop now


A Poncho Legend!

Status: Offline
Posts: 35601
Date:

you should  jump on the 74 luxury lemans   35,oooo southern car with air..

__________________

 

MC


Canadian Poncho Superstar!

Status: Offline
Posts: 7608
Date:

427carl wrote:

you should jump on the 74 luxury lemans 35,oooo southern car with air..



I'd love to but I'm not in a position to buy anything just yet.  It's a beautiful car, even the right colour for me but the timing isn't good right now.

I do prefer the '73s and for nostalgia I'd prefer to have a Canadian one with a Chevy drivetrain, but if one like this '74 came along at the right time for the right price I'd jump on it for sure.

But if I were ready to buy something I probably would've already bought that '68 427 Grande Parisienne by now...

 



__________________


Poncho Master!

Status: Offline
Posts: 2525
Date:

73SC wrote:


If you like them as I do you are in the minority. When I park at a cruise I can tell you that virtually nobody stops to look at my car, I've stood back and watched, they walk right on past. It doesn't really bother me though, it qualifies me to get in and look at all the others. You can purchase them very cheap BUT there are no restoration parts reproduced so beware. smile

-- Edited by 73SC at 18:55, 2008-05-22

I guess I'm in the minorty as well.People look at me funny when I say I want a 73.So I was suprised to see a 73 GTO at a show.Love the colour with the black int.I think he said there was only about 500 Canadian built GTO's???



Attachments
__________________


A Poncho Legend!

Status: Offline
Posts: 20150
Date:

Nice car, thanks for the post.

__________________

Ray White, Toronto ON

1973 LeMans 454 "Astro-Jet"

Built March 9, 1973 - Oshawa ON

1993 Corvette Convertible LT 1

Built January 10, 1993 - Bowling Green Kentucky 

 




A Poncho Legend!

Status: Offline
Posts: 49709
Date:

Those models have just never gotten recognition as a GTO as far as many owners go. However, I've read a few times that they easily outhandle all the earlier Goats. Can anyone confirm that, or is that someone's speculation?

__________________

1966 Strato Chief 2 door, 427 4 speed, 45,000 original miles 

1966 Grande Parisienne, 396 1 of 23 factory air cars (now converted to a "factory" 4 speed)

Fall into savings UP TO C $50 OFF Shop now
Fall into savings UP TO C $50 OFF Shop now


A Poncho Legend!

Status: Offline
Posts: 20150
Date:

Yes, the 1973 Pontiac A bodies are recognized as the best handling. The Handling Package that was standard on the GTO was available on the LeMans also. This package did not use radial tires and had front and rear sway bars with G60x15 wide ovals. These cars are also wider than the 70-72 Lemans/GTO which also aids in the cornering abilities.

Most sources cited 4,806 GTO's being built in 1973. which is 2% roughly of total LeMans production. I believe that this figure is for US production only as Canadian production facilities are rarely considered. GM Canada did not keep production figures on option codes and in 1973 GTO was an option. GM Canada will show 3,761 F37 models as being built, sport coupes like this silver one and mine. GTO was also available on the Colonade Hardtop which is D37 model but this accounted for 494. I would think the 500 Canadian figure posted it is probably well overstated. If the 2% production ratio holds true then the figure is less than 100 F37 GTO's out of Oshawa.

How many have you ever seen?

-- Edited by 73SC at 08:04, 2008-06-13

__________________

Ray White, Toronto ON

1973 LeMans 454 "Astro-Jet"

Built March 9, 1973 - Oshawa ON

1993 Corvette Convertible LT 1

Built January 10, 1993 - Bowling Green Kentucky 

 




Poncho Master!

Status: Offline
Posts: 2525
Date:

I have never had a ride in a 73,but looking at the int I bet the comfort level of the 73 far exceeds my 70.
I just don't understand why people are not after such a low production car.Far fewer 73s were made than the Judge or Ram Air cars.
I count the # of 73 I've seen on one hand

__________________


Poncho Master!

Status: Offline
Posts: 2672
Date:

455gto wrote:

I have never had a ride in a 73,but looking at the int I bet the comfort level of the 73 far exceeds my 70.
I just don't understand why people are not after such a low production car.Far fewer 73s were made than the Judge or Ram Air cars.
I count the # of 73 I've seen on one hand



Low production numbers are important, but not the be all or end all.  If that was the only thing that counted, a brown four door sedan with a six and three on tree would be off the scale!  The biggest factor is the hard to precisely define "desireability" factor.  A lot of people feel that true desireability ended with the 1972 model year.  This was primarily due to the radical changes in styling experienced on many makes for 73 and up, particularly in respect of the new 5 mph bumper requirements.  Also, performance generally continued to drop across the board with even lower compression ratios, higher axle ratios, and the end of all the exotic powertrains with multiple carburation, solid lifter cams, etc.  There were notable exceptions of course, many feel the 73-74 Super Duty engines were the best Pontiac ever built.  It's too bad they didn't find their way into the A bodies as a lot of pre-production promotional literature and magazine articles suggested they would.  The "Radial Tuned Suspension" that first appeared on 73 Grand Ams (which should have been the new GTO) was a giant leap forward and showed where an increasing focus on performance was going to be for the next decade or so.  That being said, I think we will all agree that no 73 and up A body will ever approach the value of a Judge or any ram air engined car.wink



__________________
Hillar

1970 LS4 (eventually an LS5) Laurentian 2dr hdtp
-and a bunch of other muscle cars...
1 2  >  Last»  | Page of 2  sorted by
 
Quick Reply

Please log in to post quick replies.

Tweet this page Post to Digg Post to Del.icio.us
.
Support Canadian Poncho!
Select Amount:
<
.
.
.