Anybody here familiar w/ the Canadian 'Electric Garage' group?. They have an obvious outright scam auction going on ebay right now trying to pass off a Camaro Clone car w/ a bag of doctored up documents as a real Copo.. Not cool and makes a fella untrusting of anything else they may ever offer..
The link worked for me. Besides the rivets on the Body by fisher.Could you give me a quick class on what you saw that was fake.I like know what makes a Copo?
I saw it and read over the details. I am no Camaro expert, not even a muscle car expert period. What I saw was a really nice Camaro lots of high dollar restoration parts.
What I also saw was a car with some equipment on it that was not listed as options. eg) chin spoiler and rear deck spolier. I also was questioning the exhaust system, I can't imagine a 427 car coming with the same system as a 350 car, what about Chambered exhaust system ?
Lastly the production data plate, why take a photo when it looks like it was lifted from some other car and poor affixed to this one ?
That's my questions, not saying it's fake just need those item addressed before I decide. Maybe some more knowledgeable guys will know for sure.
They had an Auction here earlier this month and were advertising a COPO Camaro(don't know if its this one or not). I didn't get to see the car, but that tag in the Ebay aution, sure looks like it was Re-attached, at some point in its life. But, I don't know enough about them either so who am I to say.....But I would definatly be suspicious of it
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1960 Pontiac Strato Chief Safari 1960 Laurentian Safari 1960 Laurentian 4door(scrapped) 2001 Grand Am Traded on a '96 Suburban 2WD 2002 Hyundai Accent(SOLD) 1968 Grand Parisienne Scrapped and SOLD
Now it appears on eBay without the Vin listed in the auction also w/ the Vin stamping on the engine pad picture conveniently obscured.. Obviously it's the same car and if you look closely at the document pictures you can just see the hand written serial # on the BS warranty book is again the same Vin..
I just can't help but think of any poor sap like you or I who may have one chance in their lives to move on a car of their dreams only to be taken down by someone like these Electric bastards and their outright fraud!. The guy who thought he was smart doing his homework and buying a documented car gets suckered...then what?. Can he afford legal action...and will it stick if he tries?. Does he play the hot potato game and shut up passing it off to someone else...like many others have done?. Maybe he hangs onto it and hopes nobody learns of his stupidity?. Wost of all, does the innocent sucker's relationship w/ his wife and family or possibly even personal business life survive the turmoil and cash loss?. None of it's final and it all costs time, money and stress no matter what choices you make!.
All this aside, keep your heads up and be wary of anything that's ever rolling out of these Electric bastard's Garage!.
-- Edited by Ghost Post at 01:58, 2008-07-28
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The car is sitting at $45,000 right now. I am not totally up on Camaro prices, how much would a really nice restoration go for? I have a friend with a 70 Pony car that is really a driver, appraised at $35,000 so it does not seem out of line. I suspect for a true COPO they are looking for 6 figures.
Anyway I don't know anyone would order a COPO car like this, to me the vinyl roof and paint colour just don't add up to the profile I have in mind. Most COPO cars ended up as drag cars didn't they ? Who would go to the ridiculous effort to spec a vinyl roof on a drag car plus that nice Cadillac style colour ? Like I said before I have no idea one way or the other, just questions.
And my pet peeve is those wheels. I know a lot of muscle cars came this way but there was only one reason. The owner wouldn't waste money with the dealer because they immediately bought some American mags or Cragers and wide tires and put those on. Nobody would run those steelies and skinnies back in the day. You just didn't see muscle cars with "poverty" wheels.
You're on the money w/ values of real Copos and this car reaching near what an admitted clone car is worth.. The concern is the Electric people are intentionally trying to pass this car off as an original Copo, not a clone or replica..
Crazy what was optioned on some of the original Copos though as there's even a couple genuine Rally Sport Copo cars!. Vinyl tops were shipped on some original Copos including VIN 635720, a Lemans blue, endura bumper, M40 car that was delivered new out of a Canadian dealer..
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I looked at the fine print at the bottom of the listing.It says they just advertise the car and are not bla bla bla.leaving them free and clear.So I sent them a message asking them how this car went from a re creation auto to a Copo 4 gear.If they where a good company that they would investigate this matter and either take down their listing or add re creation. I hate seeing people get screwed(money wise) If someone buys it I'll send them a copy of my email to them.
I hate seeing people get screwed(money wise) If someone buys it I'll send them a copy of my email to them.
I agree, but if it sells for say $50,000 isn't that a pretty darn nice 427 4 speed car for that. They just need to clarify the heritage of this baby so buyers know exactly what they are getting.
If we are talking about this here on Poncho you can imagine the action it is getting on the big Camaro sites, I'm sure there will be a lot of e-mails going to the seller trying to find out about it.
"...if it sells for say $50,000 isn't that a pretty darn nice 427 4 speed car for that. They just need to clarify the heritage of this baby so buyers know exactly what they are getting..."
Exactly and yep, looks like a good deal for a clone but the guys bucking up the dough deserve to know what they're laying the 50 thou or whatever on as maybe they wouldn't bid as much or at all if they knew the truth?!. Sadly eBay's way of obscurring bidder names makes contact between users impossible now!.
I tried a happy contact to the Electric people a few days ago praising how nice the car looked and asking if an original or clone/replica car...no reply as of a few minutes ago..
-- Edited by Ghost Post at 14:00, 2008-07-28
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Funny thing, I just had a old friend stop by the office who worked for GM for about 20 years on Leslie Street in Toronto the downtown. So I showed him the car. He liked it.
What he told me was that he had overide rights and a COPO car could be as simple as non recommended colour combinations. He told me he ordered an Olds Holiday 88 for himself as his demo, Dark blue exterior and red leather interior, red pinstriping. They had to have the cars dealer prepped so when it arrived a salesmen saw it and sold it before he could pick it up. He also told me about overridding an order for a red Suburban back in 99. Think about it, outside of a Fire Department how many red Subs have you seen. The best one was the 86 Regal T-type he self ordered, two tone black and gold bubbled hood including Grand National options. The reason he did it was because the T- Type 's curb weight was less than the GN so he had one fast ride and still looked Buick presentable when calling on dealer principles.
Not trying to hijack the thread just thought it was intersting that here we are talking COPO and a guy who could do it walks in my office. He left me a nice book to look at, 75th Anniversay of GM that all employees got.
"...if it sells for say $50,000 isn't that a pretty darn nice 427 4 speed car for that. They just need to clarify the heritage of this baby so buyers know exactly what they are getting..."
Exactly and yep, looks like a good deal for a clone but the guys bucking up the dough deserve to know what they're laying the 50 thou or whatever on as maybe they wouldn't bid as much or at all if they knew the truth?!. Sadly eBay's way of obscurring bidder names makes contact between users impossible now!.
I tried a happy contact to the Electric people a few days ago praising how nice the car looked and asking if an original or clone/replica car...no reply as of a few minutes ago..
After the car sells on Ebay.......then the buyer comes up on the completed listing.I wish Ebay would tell these jokers:You sell it ...Your liable for the info provided.
Thing is if I was going to put out 6 figures on a Copo.I would be on the plane to look it over in person.Besides the rivots they had me fooled.Lots of pic's and what looked like the documents.I'm sure this car is going to get alot of bids in the last hours.
"...I just had a old friend stop by the office who worked for GM for about 20 years..."
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Cool story and yes certain special requests and fleet ordered Copo's were much more common than performance Copo vehicles.. Over-rides for deviations from standard RPO's weren't always a Copo but sometimes req'd as special requests and/or Fleet & Shop Order cars didn't always cover the needs and assembly line changes necessary.. Copos were first seen about 1958 and made to cover some special order vehicles including Taxis and Fire equipment trucks.. There may have even been more Copo Bell Telephone trucks made than performance Copo cars so Copo doesn't always mean it's worth anything special?!.
If at all possible and your friend is an ex GM Canada guy, please ask him if he knows anything about Canadian built 'Red Tag' vehicles.. I've had little success over the years searching for info on my '67 Biscayne 2 Dr. Post RCMP Ghost car as even GM Vintage services had nothing on the Red Tag thing...last time I asked Geo. Z. about it anyway?.
I too have the 75'th GM Book.. Lotsa' great pics and I haven't looked at mine in years but my favourite pages were always the pictures of the GM head office towers, the GM Parade of Progress Futurliners and Streamliners pics also the GM Silversides Greyhound bus shots!.
-- Edited by Ghost Post at 16:31, 2008-07-29
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Auction ended w/ high bid @ $98,100.00...but didn't meet the reserve!.
Pretty strong money for a clone especially in the market of late so if the bids are genuine, it's doubtful the high bidder knew it wasn't a real and the docs bs?.
As an admitted clone, the car is nice and w/ the documents in the firepit where they belong would be a nice addition to someone's collection!.
The story certainly isn't over yet...I'm sure we'll see this car again!
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I like real cars best...especially the REAL real ones! ----------------------------------------------------------------
On the orange Biscayne, first thing to be clear of is this is nothing like the Copo Camaro mentioned above which seems to be outright fraudulantly misrepresented as a car that's obviously something it's not..
That said, I've seen the orange Biscayne online before and although a very cool car and history, it's doubtful legit bids will come in w/ the figures of this eBay auction...especially considering the market of late!.
As far as the Copo claims go, where's any evidence this was indeed a Copo car?. Yes it's special paint but a Copo build wasn't necessarily needed for special paint...sometimes it was used but unless shown as such, how do we know it was on this one?. Also since an L72 was an RPO in '69, calling it a Copo for this reason again seems a hope more than a reality?.
The ad seems to bop the Copo word around between the paint and engine but doesn't even show the Cowl tag?. Although I seem to recall this car's tag does note 'Spec Paint' or '- -'...whatever it has may not necessarily make it a Copo?.
Further w/ the Biscayne subject car, even though RPO L72 is probable..I don't even see anything offered of this originally being an L72 car?. If the guy has no original docs, build sheet or lucky enough to have a documentable Canadian built car, posting spring tags or something else he found could help convince a prospective bidder of the original L72 heritage at the very least?. As far as the L89 heads go, if he's trying to say this car was shipped w/ them installed that may be the most unlikely claim of all?. What suffix would an L72/L89 engine have for one?.
Again another very cool car w/ the Copo word seemingly thrown in yet nothing appearing to substantiate these claims?. Sure it could be but even if the tag is stamped Copo or genuine docs appear to back up the claims...that's still a lot of dough!.
PS - If someone wants an L72 Biscayne, I know of a real '68 that may still be available w/ something like 12,000 original miles for under 50 thou..
-- Edited by Ghost Post at 15:03, 2008-07-30
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I like real cars best...especially the REAL real ones! ----------------------------------------------------------------
the orange biscayne appears to be a made up 'L72' car. without papers it's nice big block equipped biscayne. i'd have thought it would have had disc brakes factory installed, not added afterward.
The COPO is posted as a tribute. Looks as though its posted as a tribute and recreation car both on the website and ebay auction. Most likely the canadian buyer got taken on it when purchased from the US, now being sold for what it may be accurately. The Electric Garage does there homework when selling cars for clients, I have used them and they are excellent...
the orange biscayne appears to be a made up 'L72' car. without papers it's nice big block equipped biscayne. i'd have thought it would have had disc brakes factory installed, not added afterward.
If that bright color two door is worth 168,000.00 then your car must be worth 150,000.00???
This car was noticed by a freind of mine a while ago on Kijiji and he forwarded the email that was sent to him . In that email it does not say anywhere that it was a tribute or a clone and the asking price was $120 K.The pictures that were sent are the same as on Ebay as well as the description of the car.The only thing that was different than Ebay was they said "This car is as new..and you see the date codes for the drivetrain all are perfect with the built date of the car.. 4th week of august 1969". The way it was offered to him was as a real COPO .
The opinions and statements to follow are personal and may or may not be shared with this site's moderators, users, members or anyone who may resemble them...living or dead
Lets be clear on the facts of both this car and how the Electric Garage people truly operate..
The car being discussed is Vin 124379N674866 ..
The car is a Recreation/Clone/Tribute '69 Copo Camaro..
Cool car but only if admitted as the clone it is and priced considering this true status..
The car was offerend on eBay by The Electric Garage also their online auctions as a genuine Copo car complete with forged documents from V.V. Cooke Chevrolet to substantiate their claims!.
Click on the eBay auction link above, it's still alive and the bogus documents can still be seen there only!.
AFTER these auctions ended as a no-sale, the online links have been altered to now read Recreation and all mention and pics of the fake documents have been removed!. The bogus docs can still be seen on the eBay add as it's impossible to change these after the sale date but it appears the link included on the eBay auction page will take you to the links that were altered after the fact..
Make no mistake in understanding the Electric people knew full well that the car and documents were not real yet continued to offer it as genuine even including when they presented it at the Sept. Calgary Auction..
Each time the car appeared, the Electric people were contacted by US and Canadian car guys asking for clarification also informing them this car was not genuine in case they did not know.. They chose not to answer those that knew or suspected the truth and continued trying to sell the car as genuine and only responding to those who seemed to be interested in buying the car and believed the V.V. Cooke bogus documents as real..
Seriously, even though this group may have had some good dealings in the past, the way they conducted themselves each time this car was offered would make me suspect of any cars they have ever had anything to do with!.
Also most concerning is how when the truth was out and the cat out of the bag so to speak, they've tried to cover their tracks after the fact...downright sneaky and certainly not an upstanding dealer to get mixed up with!.
Love to see the email sent to your friend B&G!.
-- Edited by Ghost Post at 11:01, 2008-10-12
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I like real cars best...especially the REAL real ones! ----------------------------------------------------------------
I have little faith in these companies that sell cars on Ebay for those so called clients! Where I come from .......that's called curbing. The car is just left in the sellers name till a buyer is found. That way they can keep their 100% rating on Ebay and say we only put in the ad by what the client told us. Hopefully one day Ebay will get some balls and have these people stand by what they claim in the ads.
