The thought of it is sad, but honestly, most of us here have very little interest in the Pontiac of 2009. Our hearts go back 30 or 40 years to those cars.
__________________
1966 Strato Chief 2 door, 427 4 speed, 45,000 original miles
1966 Grande Parisienne, 396 1 of 23 factory air cars (now converted to a "factory" 4 speed)
From the GM press release Pontiac is staying although there will be few models-perhaps a couple. Saturn is done as soon as this model run is complete-likely 3 years. Hummer will be gone much sooner if a buyer isn't found for the brand.
Saturn is done as soon as this model run is complete-likely 3 years.
I wonder who will march into a Saturn dealership to lay down dollars for a new car, when they know the brand is dead? Bizzare!
As for the long, maddening, terrible decline of General Motors, as a GM buyer for my entire adult life, it sickens me. It was all so unnecessary.
When the accountants pushed aside the engineers and car guys, the writing was on the wall.
It disgusts me that a once great corporation, with an incredible lineage of proud nameplates and exciting automobiles has been reduced to all this by number-crunching morons who cared more about saving $2.75 by eliminating the second (harmonizing) horn than producing excitement in the showroom.
I'll be back in a few minutes after I go kick the dog.
Saturn is done as soon as this model run is complete-likely 3 years.
I wonder who will march into a Saturn dealership to lay down dollars for a new car, when they know the brand is dead? Bizzare!
As for the long, maddening, terrible decline of General Motors, as a GM buyer for my entire adult life, it sickens me. It was all so unnecessary.
When the accountants pushed aside the engineers and car guys, the writing was on the wall.
It disgusts me that a once great corporation, with an incredible lineage of proud nameplates and exciting automobiles has been reduced to all this by number-crunching morons who cared more about saving $2.75 by eliminating the second (harmonizing) horn that producing excitement in the showroom.
I'll be back in a few minutes after I go kick the dog.
I couldn't agree with you more Bob, except the part about kicking the dog!
I lifelong GM loyalist myself, like most of us on this board probably are, I have been ranting and raving on other boards about GM's incompetent management for years. I CANNOT believe they are still letting Wagoner run the show, even at $1 per year, he is overpaid. He has overseen GM's death spiral, seeing market share collapse to barely over 20% now, from the once pround over 50%, and debt soar to stratospheric levels. GM hasn't made a profit since 2004, and that was only due to some tax write-offs and other accounting hanky-panky. How this guy, the rest of GM management, and their Board have kept their jobs all this while is completely beyond me, in any other corporation they would have been trashed long ago. The single sole thing Wagoner did right was hiring Bob Lutz, without that move I think GM would have gone belly up years ago.
__________________
Hillar
1970 LS4 (eventually an LS5) Laurentian 2dr hdtp -and a bunch of other muscle cars...
Well I have read they will keeping only 2-3 models - probably the G8 until the end of it's current model run, and the Soltice? GMC truck is already a separate division and honestly, I am surprised they are keeping this instead of just branding all the trucks as Chevies. I think this definitely spells the end of any notion of the Firebird/Trans Am returning. The rationale is that the Pontiac that continues will have truly distinct products, different from any other division. There won't be any brand engineering again, so why have a FB when there is a Camaro? Why have a Montana van when there is a Venture? All Pontiac vans/SUV type vehicles will be gone. I think they may also keep the Vibe as it is really just a Matrix and no other GM division has an equivalent vehicle. They will let Toyota continue to bear all the engineering and development work cost and then just stick Pontiac badges on it. Sigh, this is what the once proud PMD has been reduced to. Oh well, I guess if enough people fought to keep even a couple of models alive, there is still a chance that it may return one day as a full fledged division.
__________________
Hillar
1970 LS4 (eventually an LS5) Laurentian 2dr hdtp -and a bunch of other muscle cars...
GM's corporate stupidity has gone on so long, one could be forgiven if he believed it had always been so. It wasn't.
But, the warning bells have been ringing for 35 years, which is clear evidence of how long it takes to kill a giant.
Here, from the July 1981 issue of Car and Driver, are small examples of decades of mind-numbing stupidity. Is Car and Driver the authority on cars? Of course not. It's just another brick in the wall, and the quickest I could put my hands on. Believe me........there are hundreds of similar examples available.....and like it or not, the public was listening to the naysayers.
Frankly, GM dug its own grave, and all of us (especially here in Southern Ontario) are paying the price.
As I've been looking at alot of New pick ups lately I'm noticing way Too many showing up on our Dealers with MEXICAN VINS!! They ARE still building these in Oshawa and the US.By the way,sticker price is the same.
When the accountants pushed aside the engineers and car guys, the writing was on the wall.
It disgusts me that a once great corporation, with an incredible lineage of proud nameplates and exciting automobiles has been reduced to all this by number-crunching morons who cared more about saving $2.75 by eliminating the second (harmonizing) horn than producing excitement in the showroom.
Easy boys, Accountant, like me have feelings too.
Lets call a spade a spade, GM 's quality was crap in 1969 too.
They sold perception and style just like the Motor Tend article said.
When you're one of three that was easy. When people got to see a better built less expensive car, that's when the writting was on the wall. The problems were systemic by then and only promulgated with the passing of time.
73SC wrote: Easy boys, Accountant, like me have feelings too.
I apologize if I offended you, Ray. What I'm referring to is the take-over of so many large corporations by the finanical side of the organization....to wit, Rick Wagoner, who is an accountant and came up through the financial side of General Motors over his entire career.
He was (and is) no car guy. Probably couldn't find a spark plug in an apple-bobbing contest.
So, how did this happen? How did the financial guys take over? Well, that falls in our laps. Increasingly, shareholders demanded improved bottom line numbers (and dividends) every quarter, otherwise they sold their shares.
So, the end result was that the number-crunchers started whittling away at every cost factor possible.....not to make better cars, but to improve the bottom line. Then, in desperation, they haul in an old firehorse car guy by the name of Lutz and scream, "Help! Help! Help!".
Idiots.
Look around. The same thing is happening to television. Reality TV is far cheaper to produce. Who cares if it's crap as long as next quarter's statements look good. Long term planning?????
So, although the numbers guys are to blame in the trenches, it really is our fault.
Rick Wagoner made $21,000,000 last year, that's what it is all about. Businesses are not run with any learnings from the past. There likely isn't a sole in GM senior management today who was even there when that 81 Grand Prix was built and reviewed. For business it's all about the bottom line now and next quarter and for the decision makers it's all about their own personal wealth.
Wagoner will be a millionaire no matter what happens to GM!
It's still hard to believe that GM has fallen so far. I always thought someone, or some group of people would wake the company up before it got this bad. My grandmother played the stock market most of her life and one of her favorite sayings was" You can't go wrong buying GM stock if you want a safe investment" Wonder what she would say or do now.( She passed in 95)
Did you see the interview of Rick of GM, in last Saturdays car section of London Free Press? Quite interesting He reminded readers, of the fact that GM was successful at making 6-7 billion a year, which was all going to the retirement commitments...and He mentioned the billions of dollars given to import companies, to set up in North America, over the years, much of it forgiven funds..
Local news here in Ingersoll is that the CAMI plant, which is a joint venture of GM/Suzuki (Vitara,Equinox) will be one of the plants closing. That will devastate the local economy. So far just rumours, and I hope that's all it is. London radio said that came from a Washington insider today, so it's a bit scary.
If they could kill off the 100 year old "Oldsmobile" brand in better times, there's probably not much hope for Pontiac. I too also wonder if the Camaro, and over at Chrysler, the Challenger, will survive. They are more like the cars that got most of us hooked on Pontiacs (and in my case Chevies too) than the FWD stuff that dominates these product lines today. If it comes to pass, the death of the Pontiac brand will be sad, even more so in the context that some of this carnage might have been avoided had these manufacturers had more foresight.
GM should have never got so involved with Saturn (the worst car I ever test drove ... crap), as well as Hummer, & Saab ... I can forgive them for their involvement with Toyota/Vibe. But I can NEVER forgive them for axing Oldsmobile, and I will never forgive them if they axe Pontiac or eventually GMC.
__________________
Prince Edward Island
'64 Parisienne CS "barn find" - last on the road in '86 ... Owner Protection Plan booklet, original paint, original near-mint aqua interior, original aqua GM floor mats, original 283, factory posi, and original rust.
I think this definitely spells the end of any notion of the Firebird/Trans Am returning. The rationale is that the Pontiac that continues will have truly distinct products, different from any other division. There won't be any brand engineering again, so why have a FB when there is a Camaro? Why have a Montana van when there is a Venture? All Pontiac vans/SUV type vehicles will be gone. I think they may also keep the Vibe as it is really just a Matrix and no other GM division has an equivalent vehicle. They will let Toyota continue to bear all the engineering and development work cost and then just stick Pontiac badges on it. Sigh, this is what the once proud PMD has been reduced to.
