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MC


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Canadian Poncho or not?


At a cruise night a few weeks ago, I saw a car that I had known about for many years and I'm glad to see it still looking good.

It resided in the underground parking lot of a building just down the street from where I grew up.  I remember seeing it coming and going when I was a kid and as a teenager, one of my buddies delivered papers to its owner. 

It's a '69 Lemans 4 dr hardtop owned by an older lady at the time who was its original owner.  The story was that in 1969 she wanted to buy a new car, but for some reason wanted a Lemans, not a Beaumont.  I don't know the details, as I heard this second hand about 30 years ago, but apparently she arranged to buy this car through one of the local Pontiac dealers somehow.

So here is a Lemans that wasn't supposed to be available here that has spent its whole life in Canada... is it Canadian? wink

qq78nb.jpg
e67nmb.jpg
2re73n4.jpg
20z7epw.jpg

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I believe that car would have been available new at Canadian Pontiac dealers.

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MC


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2 interesting posts.

Carl: Please fill me in... were '69 model Lemans available through Canadian dealers?  Was that due to the Beaumont being in its last year?  I've read here about the full size cars being a mix of "Canadian" and "American" for 1970, and obviously the Lemans Replaced the Beaumont in Canada for 1970, but as it being a regularly available model for 1969, I wasn't aware of that.

Pete:  While not an expert on these, I believe this to be a '69 as it doesn't have the wrap-around front parking lights that the '68s had:

53217401_pr.jpg

I had second thoughts about it, because it had the front vent windows that I thought was gone in hardtops for '69, but I think it must have only been on 2-doors, as this '69 has them too:
53217278_pr.jpg

Again, I'm not an expert on these... is there anything else that might indicate that it's a '68?

-- Edited by MC on Wednesday 15th of September 2010 02:09:15 PM

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If Canadian built or not will need further investigating but before you start digging for info of what was available/produced here etc, that looks like a '68 Lemans w/ a '69 front bumper?.

~ smile.gif

Sorry my above post got deleted instead of edited..
I'm not an expert on these either but yes the vent window/Hardtop combo was what I saw first!.
Rear bumpers were shared w/ the Goats so 68 & 69 different and this one a'69..
Man those tail lights sure are similar to the '72 BelAir lamps!.

All considered it could very well be a '69 afterall...maybe even Canadian too!?.
Is the ignition on the column or dash and where's the Vin tag mount?.

confused.gif
















-- Edited by Ghost Post on Wednesday 15th of September 2010 02:45:38 PM

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Canadian Poncho Superstar!

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im sure you could get anything you wanted as long as you paid the extra tariff (the reason we have our Canadian Ponchos) ,that i think expired in 1969? 69 GTos were available from dealers here
this one was likely exported here from the Baltimore Maryland  Plant being on the East coast



1969
1969 Pontiac Accessories-05




-- Edited by 68sd on Wednesday 15th of September 2010 02:36:02 PM

-- Edited by 68sd on Wednesday 15th of September 2010 02:37:39 PM

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Canadian Poncho Superstar!

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here the OLD Mill in Toronto shot from 1969,no Canadian Ponchos to be seen




-- Edited by 68sd on Wednesday 15th of September 2010 02:38:55 PM

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Canadian Poncho Superstar!

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heres a short list of pre 70 American pontiacs weve seen so far in Canada since new

GTO/Lemans/Tempest

1968
shipped
October 24th 1967    24267     400ci      Q/1     (black buckets)   B.C
link
G.T.O conv.    M40      Verdoro Green/ black top
351,381,391,414,424,434,453,472,484,501,502,504,532,551,652,672,752
Built Pontiac Michigan    Carter Pontiac Buick Ltd.-Vancouver B.C
68?  imported



1969
May 21st 1969     24237    400 L74  72/E  (257 parchment)   Ohio U.S.A link
G.T.O Judge 2dr coupe   M40   Carousel Red /parchment top
C08 H02 D55 G80 U30 U57 WT1 Y96   Built Pontiac Michigan 
sold Northgate pontiac-Edmonton Alberta


Shipped
June 5th 1969     24267    400ci     51/A     (250 blue)   Ontario             link

G.T.O conv.      M40    Liberty Blue met. /white top
A31 D33 D55 G80 H02 JL2 J50 N40 P01 U63 U80 V48
Built baltimore Maryland        Plaza Pontiac Buick Ltd.Toronto Ontario
730 imported

Shipped
June 10th 1969 24267  400 RA IV   51/C  (257 parchment)  Missouri USA  link
G.T.O conv         M40      Liberty Blue/drk blue top    
G80 D55         GM of Canada Product Stock -Moncton New Brunswick

Selling Dealer Terra Nova Motors        Built Baltimore Maryland

Built July 23rd
1969     24237           400 RA III          52      (parchment int.)   B.C          link

G.T.O Judge 2dr hrdtp    3speed auto       Matador Red/Parchment top
Built Pontiac Michigan
361,671,501,532,631,752,351,382,472,511,632,SVT
Pontiac Motors Ltd.-Edmonton Alberta




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MC


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Neat stuff, guys!

So that being said, would Beaumonts have been produced/sold at the same time that the American stuff started trickling in to Canadian dealers?

Anybody know when the last Beaumont was built/sold?

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MC


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68sd wrote:

heres a short list of pre 70 American pontiacs weve seen so far in Canada since new

GTO/Lemans/Tempest

1968
shipped
October 24th 1967    24267     400ci      Q/1     (black buckets)   B.C
link
G.T.O conv.    M40      Verdoro Green/ black top
351,381,391,414,424,434,453,472,484,501,502,504,532,551,652,672,752
Built Pontiac Michigan    Carter Pontiac Buick Ltd.-Vancouver B.C
68?  imported



1969
May 21st 1969     24237    400 L74  72/E  (257 parchment)   Ohio U.S.A link
G.T.O Judge 2dr coupe   M40   Carousel Red /parchment top
C08 H02 D55 G80 U30 U57 WT1 Y96   Built Pontiac Michigan 
sold Northgate pontiac-Edmonton Alberta


Shipped
June 5th 1969     24267    400ci     51/A     (250 blue)   Ontario             link

G.T.O conv.      M40    Liberty Blue met. /white top
A31 D33 D55 G80 H02 JL2 J50 N40 P01 U63 U80 V48
Built baltimore Maryland        Plaza Pontiac Buick Ltd.Toronto Ontario
730 imported

Shipped
June 10th 1969 24267  400 RA IV   51/C  (257 parchment)  Missouri USA  link
G.T.O conv         M40      Liberty Blue/drk blue top    
G80 D55         GM of Canada Product Stock -Moncton New Brunswick

Selling Dealer Terra Nova Motors        Built Baltimore Maryland

Built July 23rd
1969     24237           400 RA III          52      (parchment int.)   B.C          link

G.T.O Judge 2dr hrdtp    3speed auto       Matador Red/Parchment top
Built Pontiac Michigan
361,671,501,532,631,752,351,382,472,511,632,SVT
Pontiac Motors Ltd.-Edmonton Alberta



Next time I see the car, I'll ask the owner (he/she wasn't around the car when I took the pics this time) for some more info on the history of it.  I'll pass along any info I can get if it will be helpful to the registry.

 



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Canadian Poncho Superstar!

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yes

lol, i met a member on this site ,his Beaumont was built June 23rd 1969
sold at York Mills ,ill find a picture, nice car maybe he will see this post and tell us more about it!

latest ive ever heard so far.

lore is ,the reason there are so few 69 SDs is the availability of the GTO in Canada in 69!




-- Edited by 68sd on Wednesday 15th of September 2010 03:32:47 PM

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Canadian Poncho Superstar!

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The Automotive Products Trade Agreement, commonly known as the Auto Pact or APTA, was an important trade agreement between Canada and the United States. It was signed by Prime Minister Lester B. Pearson and President Lyndon B. Johnson in January 1965.[1]

It removed tariffs on cars, trucks, buses, tires, and automotive parts between the two countries, greatly benefiting the large American car makers. In exchange the big three car makers (General Motors, Ford, and Chrysler) agreed that automobile production in Canada would not fall below 1964 levels and that for every five new cars sold in Canada, three new ones would be made there.

Before the Auto Pact the North American automobile industry was highly segregated. Because of tariffs, only three percent of vehicles sold in Canada were made in the United States, but most of the parts were manufactured in the U.S. and overall Canada was in a large trade deficit with the States in the automobile sector.

The Pact saw vast and immediate changes. Canada began to produce far fewer different models of cars. Instead, much larger branch plants producing only one model for all of North America were constructed. In 1964, only seven percent of vehicles made in Canada were sent south of the border, but by 1968, this was sixty percent. By the same date, forty percent of cars purchased in Canada were made in the United States. Automobile and parts production quickly surpassed pulp and paper to become Canada's most important industry. The trade deficit was reversed into a trade surplus worth billions of dollars annually to Canada.

The agreement is considered[who?] to have benefitted Canadian workers and consumers by dint of lowered prices and increased production creating thousands of jobs and increasing wages. At the same time, the Auto Pact brought significant disadvantages, as well. It left the Canadian automobile industry firmly in the hands of American corporations. Canada no longer had any domestic car makers, and the agreement also led to the creation of almost exclusively blue collar jobs while administration, research and development remained in the United States. The agreement also prevented Canada pursuing free trade in automobiles elsewhere internationally, and this North American exclusivity required Canada to adopt American technical regulations rather than participating in the international consensus on auto safety and emissions regulations. Sector growth under the Auto Pact was also highly localised to southern Ontario, with little employment benefit to the rest of Canada.



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MC


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Again, thanks Fred!  CP is always a learning experience for me!!

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Ghost Post wrote:

If Canadian built or not will need further investigating but before you start digging for info of what was available/produced here etc, that looks like a '68 Lemans w/ a '69 front bumper?.

~ smile.gif

Sorry my above post got deleted instead of edited..
I'm not an expert on these either but yes the vent window/Hardtop combo was what I saw first!.
Rear bumpers were shared w/ the Goats so 68 & 69 different and this one a'69..
Man those tail lights sure are similar to the '72 BelAir lamps!.

All considered it could very well be a '69 afterall...maybe even Canadian too!?.
Is the ignition on the column or dash and where's the Vin tag mount?.

confused.gif
















-- Edited by Ghost Post on Wednesday 15th of September 2010 02:45:38 PM



No mistaking that dash. Its a 69. Same dash as my 69 beaumont.

 



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68sd wrote:

The Automotive Products Trade Agreement, commonly known as the Auto Pact or APTA, was an important trade agreement between Canada and the United States. It was signed by Prime Minister Lester B. Pearson and President Lyndon B. Johnson in January 1965.[1]

It removed tariffs on cars, trucks, buses, tires, and automotive parts between the two countries, greatly benefiting the large American car makers. In exchange the big three car makers (General Motors, Ford, and Chrysler) agreed that automobile production in Canada would not fall below 1964 levels and that for every five new cars sold in Canada, three new ones would be made there.

Before the Auto Pact the North American automobile industry was highly segregated. Because of tariffs, only three percent of vehicles sold in Canada were made in the United States, but most of the parts were manufactured in the U.S. and overall Canada was in a large trade deficit with the States in the automobile sector.

The Pact saw vast and immediate changes. Canada began to produce far fewer different models of cars. Instead, much larger branch plants producing only one model for all of North America were constructed. In 1964, only seven percent of vehicles made in Canada were sent south of the border, but by 1968, this was sixty percent. By the same date, forty percent of cars purchased in Canada were made in the United States. Automobile and parts production quickly surpassed pulp and paper to become Canada's most important industry. The trade deficit was reversed into a trade surplus worth billions of dollars annually to Canada.

The agreement is considered[who?] to have benefitted Canadian workers and consumers by dint of lowered prices and increased production creating thousands of jobs and increasing wages. At the same time, the Auto Pact brought significant disadvantages, as well. It left the Canadian automobile industry firmly in the hands of American corporations. Canada no longer had any domestic car makers, and the agreement also led to the creation of almost exclusively blue collar jobs while administration, research and development remained in the United States. The agreement also prevented Canada pursuing free trade in automobiles elsewhere internationally, and this North American exclusivity required Canada to adopt American technical regulations rather than participating in the international consensus on auto safety and emissions regulations. Sector growth under the Auto Pact was also highly localised to southern Ontario, with little employment benefit to the rest of Canada.



Thanks 68sd.  You've shaved off some research for me.  It's taken months to figure out what a truly Canadian Poncho is.  (And I know from old threads that that's a debate not to be reopened, right Todd?)

 



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http://archives.cbc.ca/economy_business/trade_agreements/topics/326/



-- Edited by 68sd on Wednesday 15th of September 2010 03:46:16 PM

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Poncho Master!

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A while back there was a '65 Tempest 4 door down the street from where my Parents lived. Rumour had it, it was bought new here as well...

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A Poncho Legend!

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I almost had a cow when I saw the Old Mill pic. I thought the T/A was one of the convertibles. 3 of them were sold in Canada, right?

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Canadian Poncho Superstar!

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this is also interesting

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_7021/is_2_27/ai_n28126790/?tag=content;col1

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Canadian Poncho Superstar!

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this is a 1965 GTO sold new at Empress in Victoria




To order a GTO in 1965 you had to order one of three Tempest Le Mans two door bodies; the coupe, hardtop or convertible and check off option 382, the GTO package, in the order box  which added $295.90 to the cost of the car. The GTO option package included the 389 cubic inch engine with a four barrel Carter carb, dual exhausts, 3 speed synchro floor shift, sport type springs and shocks, special seven blade fan and fan clutch, 7:75 X 14 red line tires, chrome air cleaner, chrome rocker arm covers and GTO emblems.

Pontiac Historic Services (PHS) documentation and the original Protect-O-Plate confirm this is an authentic numbers matching 1965 GTO.

This car is not your normal GTO with the legendary 389, 3 deuces and a four speed. This 1965 Pontiac Tempest Le Mans  2 door post coupe came of the assembly line the first week of March in 1965 with the following options:
382: the GTO package 532: Soft Ray glass windshield
398: manual AM radio and antenna 602: outside LH mirror
601: console and bucket seats 971: back up lights
701: Safe T track rear axle EG: 8:45 X 14 red line tires
742: automatic transmission 421: dual speed windshield wipers and washer

Total cost of this car when Empress Motors in Victoria B.C. sold the car on April 1, 1965 was $2296.36.

The original owners sold the car in February 1988







1965-pontiac-gto-1.jpg

1965-pontiac-gto-3.jpg

1965-pontiac-gto-2.jpg

-- Edited by 68sd on Wednesday 15th of September 2010 04:09:21 PM

-- Edited by 68sd on Wednesday 15th of September 2010 04:10:11 PM

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There is no mistaking that to be a '69. First as was mentioned the dash is all '69 and later. In '68 the heater controls were up and down, not sideways you can see this in the one picture. Also the seat print, where it shows a "Y" pattern in the seat is also '69 only. It shared the same pattern with the GTO. '68 is plain stright lines......here is a pic



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NOS


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I stand to be corrected, but I believe the GM A body 4 door hard tops had the vent window right thru to 1972 as did the 2 & 4 door sedans.

One of my customers told me he purchased a red GTO tri power convertible from Sinclair Pontiac  (London) in 1966. He said they also had a blue GTO convertible in stock at that same time . I seem to remember London Motor Products having a green GTO drag  car which I think was  a 66 or 67. Maybe someone else knows more about the LMP car? 
I have a customer with a Burgandy 66 GTO convertible
. He is not the original owner but the car was sold new in the London area

interesting stuff;  Dale @ NOS

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Dale is right about the vent windows on the 4 door a bodies up to 72.

As to Canadian purchased GTOs, I has always understood that the Pontiac dealers could bring in special ordered cars like GTO, Grand Prix, etc. I think they were treated as imports.

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Canadian Poncho Superstar!

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1969 was the first year a GTO was avaialble in the mainstrem dealer system in Canada. American models could always be purchased but had to be imported with duties etc.. as already mentioned.

I think we have been pretty liberal in classifying a Canadain Poncho as Built in Canada or originally sold by a Canadian dealer.

The 1969 Tempest meets our criteria.

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gparis7 wrote:

Dale is right about the vent windows on the 4 door a bodies up to 72.




 Our 70 Tempest had vent windows too, it was a 2dr. Sedan.



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ga


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love the vent windows, dad bought it new in 72, he cheaped out and
bought the post car, green and post car, took a while for
anyone to appreciate that, he traded his 65 parisenne to get it, already
rusting out by 1972,  as a teenager i wished it was a hardtop and
some other colour, but i like it alot better now


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