Let me be the first to answer my own poll. I support him 100%, and will loan him more guns if he wanted. I thank him for doing what the police wont. The same gang still vandalizes from time to time. I wont post what I will do if I catch them, just in case it comes to pass. I also understand public concern, but if our soldiers are willing to 'police' for free......give em all badges!
BURTON - New Brunswickers are rallying to support a Burton man facing weapons charges after brandishing an unloaded shotgun during a confrontation with late-night prowlers.
Lawrence "Laurie" Manzer said he received plenty of supportive calls from friends and strangers throughout the day Tuesday after his story became public.
Manzer has been charged with possessing a weapon for a purpose dangerous to the public peace after he went out to help a neighbour dealing with three young men who were spotted trespassing in his Burton neighborhood late one night last March.
He grabbed an unloaded gun on his way out the door and now he is facing a weapons charge while the three youths were charged only with liquor offences.
Among those offering Manzer moral support is George MacFarlane, who was given a conditional discharge in 1999 for unloading a round of birdshot into the back of a van after his Fredericton-area convenience store was broken into.
MacFarlane said it's a sad state of affairs when people who stand up for their rights wind up before the court while the assailant escapes criminal charges.
"If they are caught by a private citizen, it's the citizen who gets charged," said MacFarlane, who was found guilty of a charge of discharging a firearm in a careless manner 11 years ago.
"He's done nothing wrong, for the love of God. I don't know why he's being charged. It makes no sense except we have the stupidest justice system in the world." "A man that serves his country, but he can't defend his own property ... I can't believe it," he said.
Manzer has had all his firearms seized.
Manzer said he and his neighbours were increasingly vigilant in the weeks before the arrest and didn't feel the Mounties were being responsive to their concerns about vandalism and thefts from their neighborhood.
Staff Sgt. Gary Cameron, the RCMP's spokesman in New Brunswick, confirmed that three male youths arrested at that location March 28 were charged under the Liquor Control Act for underage drinking. He declined to offer further comment on the investigation as Manzer's matter remains before the court.
Asked why the youths who were running across yards at night have not faced other charges related to the events of that night, Cameron gave the same answer twice.
"If a crime is reported and we have identified suspects, we will investigate and if we believe it is substantiated we will lay charges."
Michael Boudreau, a professor of criminology at St. Thomas University in Fredericton, said the case is notable.
"It sounds like police are trying to send a message to him and others not to take the law into their own hands, because if you do, things could escalate and become worse than they are."
But he said the story of a citizen being charged after trying to stop a crime could have a negative impact on people's trust of the criminal justice system.
"These kinds of incidents do to a certain extent shake public confidence in the criminal justice system and the police," Boudreau said.
Boudreau said the police are in an ongoing struggle to balance peoples' expectations with their abilities, particularly in areas where one officer may be covering a vast area.
He said people looking to defend their property have to be careful that they don't break the law.
"People always feel 'I'm not the criminal.' But the criminal is anyone who breaks the law. Anyone who reacts with excessive force, it's a criminal act and you're liable."
Boudreau said the question for citizens is always how far they can go.
"If you shoot and kill someone you find breaking into your cellar window, that's excessive force and you won't be able to fall back necessarily on the law and say 'I was protecting myself'."
"Now, if someone's coming at you with a knife or a gun, threatening your life, then maybe you get into the realm of self-defence," he said.
that he was unloaded speaks against him. While I support and agree with him ... the law only allows you to hold a weapon in your own defense. That it wasn't loaded, it can be argued that he didn't fear for his life.
If you're going to confront thugs ... make sure there's only one side of the story left to be told when the cops show.
Shoulda took a bat and "clubbed them like baby seals", thats what a friend at work says all the time. If your gonna get charged, make damn positive, they have something to charge you with.
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1960 Pontiac Strato Chief Safari 1960 Laurentian Safari 1960 Laurentian 4door(scrapped) 2001 Grand Am Traded on a '96 Suburban 2WD 2002 Hyundai Accent(SOLD) 1968 Grand Parisienne Scrapped and SOLD
What if your property was fenced , so your pet dogs could run free within the boundries of your yard.
Then you have individuals jump your fence and your dogs don't take kindly to that.... would we blame the dogs who are naturally protecting their property?
I tried to protect my business property using dogs in an already fenced in area with a barb wire on the top of the chain link fence with no tresspassing signs posted. I could not use the dogs because when they bit somebody, I get sued . My argument was that the property was posted and fenced in more than a reasonable manner. How can I be held responsible if someone enters my property by climbing over a chain link fence with 3 rows of barbed wire on the top and gets bit? Apparently I knowing put the dogs in the fenced yard knowing they would bite someone if they entered the yard. All the jerks had to do was say they were taking a short cut thru my yard and were minding their own business. According to them they did not enter my yard to break into my building. Some things are just a joke........but its not very funny !
"If you shoot and kill someone you find breaking into your cellar window, that's excessive force and you won't be able to fall back necessarily on the law and say 'I was protecting myself'."
Get real..Say if you don`t know if the guy breaking in the window is carrying a loaded gun or not and you have a family inside your home are you going to give him the chance to harm or even kill you or members of your family.....I think not
"If you shoot and kill someone you find breaking into your cellar window, that's excessive force and you won't be able to fall back necessarily on the law and say 'I was protecting myself'."
Get real..Say if you don`t know if the guy breaking in the window is carrying a loaded gun or not and you have a family inside your home are you going to give him the chance to harm or even kill you or members of your family.....I think not
I agree fully. How is one supposed to know what the intentions of the 'prowlers' are? As in the case above, he didnt know what he was about to face. I'd rather find out that I'm over prepared than the alternative. If I caught someone breaking in my window, not only would I shoot them, I'd empty the clip, and then beat them with the butt end for putting me through that.
I appreciate all opinions knowing that we are merely the sum of our experiences. I have no faith in our police, for good reason. Maybe this one is a little too close to home for me to have an unbiased opinion.
I was being generous Being drunk is not a reason, for me NOT to shoot you!
Heres a article from 2 months ago.. Fellow uses a loaded SK-47 for defence and got off
Daily News Article - September 8, 2010
Long Island Man Arrested For Defending Home
(from CBSNews.com) UNIONDALE, N.Y. (CBS 2) - He was arrested for protecting his property and family.
But it's how the Long Island man did it that police say crossed the line.
He got an AK-47 assault rifle, pulled the trigger and he ended up in jail, reports CBS 2's Pablo Guzman.
George Grier said he had to use his rifle on Sunday night to stop what he thought was going to be an invasion of his Uniondale home by a gang he thought might have been the vicious "MS-13." He said the whole deal happened as he was about to drive his cousin home.
"I went around and went into the house, ran upstairs and told my wife to call the police. I get the gun and I go outside and I come into the doorway and now, by this time, they are in the driveway, back here near the house. I tell them, you know, Can you please leave?' Grier said.
Grier said the five men dared him to use the gun; and that their shouts brought another larger group of gang members in front of his house.
"He starts threatening my family, my life. Oh you're dead. I'm gonna kill your family and your babies. You're dead.' So when he says that, 20 others guys come rushing around the corner. And so I fired four warning shots into the grass," Grier said.
Grier was later arrested. John Lewis is Grier's attorney.
"What he's initially charged with - A D felony reckless endangerment - requires a depraved indifference to human life, creating a risk that someone's going to die. Shooting into a lawn doesn't create a risk of anybody dying," Lewis said.
Grier said he knew Nassau County Police employ the hi-tech "ShotSpotter" technology in his area and that the shooting would bring police in minutes. Cops told Guzman he was very cooperative.
Grier also said he was afraid the gang outside his house was the dreaded MS-13. And Nassau County Police Lt. Andrew Mulraine, head of the gang unit, said MS-13 has 2,000 members in the county.
"They're probably the most organized. They almost have a military hierarchy within the gang, so they are the most organized gang we encounter on a daily basis," Mulraine said.
You may think a person has the right to defend their home. But the law says you can only use physical force to deter physical force. Grier said he never saw anyone pull out a gun, so a court would have to decide on firing the gun.
Police determined Grier had the gun legally. He has no criminal record. And so he was not charged for the weapon.
That ShotSpotter technology pinpoints where a gun has been fired within 35 feet. Police said it also detected two other shootings in nearby Roosevelt that night.
Your neighbour with the unloaded gun is lucky they didn't have loaded guns ... I say your neighbour was a bit naive (stupid).
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Prince Edward Island
'64 Parisienne CS "barn find" - last on the road in '86 ... Owner Protection Plan booklet, original paint, original near-mint aqua interior, original aqua GM floor mats, original 283, factory posi, and original rust.
Liberals have twisted the laws over the years to the point that now there is no more common sense....The criminals get off - the victims are charged and the lawyers all get paid BIG MONEY..
I was held captive on my property by a non rent paying tenant who had already assaulted me and the first thing I did was bury my locked gun case under fenders and doors in my shop. If I even picked up a gun for any reason I would have gone to jail while my renter who owed me over 2500.00 dollars in rent, 400 in hydro, who tried to throw me off my deck, would have sat back and enjoyed more free rent. Instead I checked when my tenant was gone the longest and had a steel bin delivered to the bottom of the driveway. I stuffed that thing full and left the door on it open as not to restrict access to there belongings because if I locked it again I would have been in trouble. I called the cops and they said I did the wrong thing and I could be liable. The people who do crimes are protected more than the tax paying residents are. What the **** is wrong with that system?
I figure anybody i find in my house that wasn't invited in is not there to say. "hello!' and has only malice in thought. I will defend my family and property.
Better to be judged by twelve than carried by six.
Is it any wonder that it is called the "Criminal Justice System"? It certainly isn't for any justice to law abiding citizens.
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"Things work out best for the people who make the best of the way things work out." - Art Linkletter
I never have voted anything but Conservative in my life and I still fail to see how pulling a gun on a drunk is justified. I suppose having a Law Enforcement officer as a son makes me look at this differently and with a little knowledge of the rights of individuals.
All law enforcement agencies in Canada train their officers in use of force according to our laws. the basic premise is you can use as much force as is necessary to gain control. Same goes for citizens.
Another thing that is ingrained in our son is his agency's command motto, "Negotiation before Confrontation" so I ask, how is it that these situations arise ? A little too much testosterone and not enough thinking about actions is what I say.
How is a unloaded gun dangerous ? It can only be used as a club. No different than a stick or metal pipe Imo. His intent was clear only to scare them as was not loaded.
-- Edited by Beaumont4008 on Monday 6th of December 2010 03:01:31 PM
A gun is one of the most violent things you can introduce to escalate an argument. How is anyone to know someone branishing a gun has not loaded it? I can imagine now what we would be saying if one of the drunk boys had a gun and shot this well intentioned man with his unloaded gun.
-- Edited by 73SC on Monday 6th of December 2010 03:10:59 PM
Will have to agree to disagree on this one Ray, but we do agree he was a well intentioned man. He will probably get a fine and a five year suspention on owning a firearm. Thats what I got back in 94. Will take him some time to get it back.
Just read below post, he had shells in hand, thats not good.
-- Edited by Beaumont4008 on Monday 6th of December 2010 03:48:20 PM
'Shocked' by arrest for coming to aid of neighbour with shotgun in hand in March
Burton, N.B., man who confronted prowlers with an unloaded shotgun was charged Monday with possessing a weapon for a purpose dangerous to public peace.
The lawyer for Lawrence Russell Manzer, 45, appeared in provincial court in the central New Brunswick town on Monday.
Manzer was awoken in the early hours of March 28 by a phone call from a neighbour warning him three prowlers were in the area. (At the time, there had been repeated incidents of vandalism in Burton.)
The prowlers had been spotted in the yard of Manzer's neighbour, Brian Fox, around 2:30 a.m., and Fox had gone out to try to catch them.
"As I was running down towards [the prowler], I saw two other people in the street, and they turned towards me and said, 'You can't do that; you're not a cop'," Fox said Tuesday.
"These two guys started walking towards me, and it's dark, I don't know if they have a knife, or a bat, or anything on them."
'I just find it ludicrous that this is still going on.' Brian Fox
That was when Manzer heard the shouting and went to help Fox.
"I grabbed my firearm and went out onto the step," Manzer said. "There was a lot yelling. It was dark; it was hard to see."
He thought Fox or Fox's son or wife were confronting the strangers.
"I stepped out front with the firearm for my protection and told everyone to be quiet, the police are on the way, don't anybody move," Manzer said.
Neighbours both ex-military men
Fox had all three intruders, who turned out to be teenagers, sitting on the ground by then and told Manzer he could put his shotgun away. Manzer said he did so. He also said the weapon was unloaded and the rounds were in his hand.
Fox said he was never concerned Manzer would fire the weapon.
The two neighbours, both retired military men, said police arrived and took the three teenagers home and charged them with underage drinking.
A week later, officers returned to arrest Manzer at home. Fox was also arrested and eventually charged with assault. The charge against Fox was later dropped.
"Utter disbelief. I was shocked," Manzer said of being arrested in front of his family.
"I just find it ludicrous that this is still going on," Fox said.
The men said they are not vigilantes but were trying to protect their homes and help a neighbour. RCMP Sgt. Pierre Gervais would not comment on the case because it is before the courts, but he did discourage people from acting as the Burton men did.
"If you're not in danger, or you can disengage and do it safely, call the police,' he said. "We'll answer those calls and we will take appropriate action."
Manzer faces $5,000 in fines and/or six months in jail. The matter is due back in court on Dec. 6.
the funniest thing about common sense, is that its not all that common. with that being said, i have 2 assault charges, that i dont deserve. when was the last time you seen evidence of innocent untill proven guilty? our inssurance companys even love that one. renew your insurance for your car with an ongoing charge: even if not convicted yet, you still pay the higher rate for that charge for the annual rate. but if you beat the charge, and not get convicted, you dont get refunded the difference. my last assault charge, i didnt hit him, cause i new i would get charged, i pushed him instead, to defend myself, he fell off of a deck, and i was charged. it cost me $4700. to get assault causing bodily harm, reduced to common assault, all because i had 1 prior. we dont have a justice system anymore. what have i learned? from now on, if there is any doubt in charges being laid, MAKE IT WORTHWHILE!
This is ridiculous!!... he shouldn't be charged if he thinks he was defending his neighbour who may have been in an altercation...but if he went out looking for one himself, then he should get charged. This is a slippery slope, where we start to get into the US style of right to bear arms, and want to carry them all over. Personally i think he should have loaded his gun went for a walk and only unveiled the weapon if someones life was in jeopardy, not for intimidation...although i really like the idea that he may have taught a lesson to some punks that needed it!! I know of someone here that used a shotgun in a similar way and wasn't charged.
I figure anybody i find in my house that wasn't invited in is not there to say. "hello!' and has only malice in thought. I will defend my family and property.
Better to be judged by twelve than carried by six.
Is it any wonder that it is called the "Criminal Justice System"? It certainly isn't for any justice to law abiding citizens.
How is anyone to know someone branishing a gun has not loaded it? I can imagine now what we would be saying if one of the drunk boys had a gun and shot this well intentioned man with his unloaded gun.
That's exactly what I meant when I said ... "Your neighbour with the unloaded gun is lucky they didn't have loaded guns ... I say your neighbour was a bit naive (stupid)."
Vigilante justice can backfire with deadly circumstances.
I lived in one of the roughest areas of Toronto (Bloor/Lansdowne) for years, and I'm not a small guy or a guy that frightens easily, but I would never be a vigilante. I'd let the cops handle it. 911.
Ray, you were being nice in saying "well-intentioned". I think the guy was an idiot for taking the law and his life into his own hands.
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Prince Edward Island
'64 Parisienne CS "barn find" - last on the road in '86 ... Owner Protection Plan booklet, original paint, original near-mint aqua interior, original aqua GM floor mats, original 283, factory posi, and original rust.
