I am planning on hopping up the 261 six in my '62 Poncho. As luck would have it, the day after looking at Clifford performance goodies on their website, I was passing my mates shop,(Garage here), and a guy I knew was there.
He works on American/Canadian cars and I asked him if he had any straight 6 Engine parts. To my great suprise,(rare to get six speed goodies here), he said he is about to swap out a 250 six from a Chevy truck and replace it with an eight at the customers request. The best bit,(for me), is that when I looked at it, it has a Clifford inlet manifold, a set of clifford headers,(short for car and truck), and an Edelbrock carb, all fitted to the engine.
My questions are,does the inlet manifold normally have small threaded holes in the top of the water tubes, adjacent to the head? This one does, although they are pluged with small brass plugs.
Next question, the Edelbrock carb looks like its fitted via a four barrel adapter plate. I don't know the number of this carb, but can theese carbs work well on this set up, or is a 38-38 Webber or Holley better?
Thank you in advance, El-Swervo, (very Newbie), England.
here, we call it an intake manifold. are you sure the brass plugs are on the water tubes of your intake? it almost sounds like threaded bosses for a nitrous setup. can you show us some pics? as for the carb, i,ve seen guys running 750 cfm,s on straight sixs, all depending on what you have going on inside that six. if you can, see if you can find out more of whats done to it. colin
Just one bit of information. I don't think any of those parts except the carb will do you any good. The 235/261 is one block and the 194/230/250/292 is another block.
Hi, I am also a new member and this is my first attempt at posting. I am currently in the process of changing motors in my 63 Invader. The 194 is out and I have a freshly rebuilt 250 beside the car. The block is bored 40 over, the head is ported a bit, there is a radical camshaft in there and so on. I have a Clifford intake, proper adapter, Holley 450 and Hooker headers all ready to install and the headers don't fit. They won't clear the steering box and they are much too long and will drag on the ground. Obviously have truck headers here! My intake is a veteran of years ago and has no accomodation for water. The Cliffords need an adapter to make any carb fit their intake. The 250 needed other adaptations to make it fit the Acadian. The oil pan is one example. There will be many challenges before this is complete but we are plugging away at it. This is my first Acadian and first attempt at such an engine conversion.
here, we call it an intake manifold. are you sure the brass plugs are on the water tubes of your intake? it almost sounds like threaded bosses for a nitrous setup. can you show us some pics? as for the carb, i,ve seen guys running 750 cfm,s on straight sixs, all depending on what you have going on inside that six. if you can, see if you can find out more of whats done to it. colin
Bit of a delay, I had to go to bed! I am assuming the water holes/tubes are those 2 "ribs" that run around the top of the manifold? can't do pics yet. watch this space.
As for the rest of the motor, it's unknown as yet as the guy that owns the car is not a petrol head. He just likes what the truck looks like and bought it for that reason. The engine going in is a V8 Deisel!, ( the price of Gas here has gone bananas £1.30 ish a litre, thats a lot per gallon). I will assume nothing?
I'm told its a bit tired and the valves/head are suspect. Havn't heard it running yet. I am not sure even if this engine is a 250, its what I have been told.
I can tell a 216 from a 235 and I know what a 261 looks like but don't know what the diffence is with the 250.
Just one bit of information. I don't think any of those parts except the carb will do you any good. The 235/261 is one block and the 194/230/250/292 is another block.
I have been told that this is a 250( that was a best guess), not sure? but this engine could be from a Camero or something. How do you tell the engines apart? Is it the scews on the valve cover or something else simple or is it obvious to the trained eye? or will I need to get the number on the block to clarify Don't get too many comparisons around these parts! Its a shame if they won't fit, but I'll get it anyway if the price is right for a spare engine.
Getting back to the infamous 261, I have made a few past rants on the wonders of this engine, particularly in a stck car racing situation. In the 70's, up in Edmonton Alberta Canada, the 261 was THE racing engine for an entry level racer. And with that, if you had a "Peets" 261, you were someone. Ray Peets and Reliable Engine Services used to go through these engines for various racers and make them "golden". Absolutly bullet-proof. I know Mr. Peets and Reliable have retired, but with the wonders of the internet, you might be able to scare him up and at least get some great tips from a true 261 GURU from the past.
Regards.
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"Repulsive since 1959"
2015 Camaro SS1 2014 GMC Sierra 1969 GTO 2005 Dodge Daytona Short Box Regular cab P/U 1979 Pontiac Grand Prix Enduro stock car
Getting back to the infamous 261, I have made a few past rants on the wonders of this engine, particularly in a stck car racing situation. In the 70's, up in Edmonton Alberta Canada, the 261 was THE racing engine for an entry level racer. And with that, if you had a "Peets" 261, you were someone. Ray Peets and Reliable Engine Services used to go through these engines for various racers and make them "golden". Absolutly bullet-proof. I know Mr. Peets and Reliable have retired, but with the wonders of the internet, you might be able to scare him up and at least get some great tips from a true 261 GURU from the past.
Regards.
It would be great to hear from a master of the 261. I have had a look around the internet and so far have had no luck. I have found a couple of things, like when he won, along with Gary Beck, the NHRA top fuel world champs in 1973. The Beck & Peeks Team it seems were BIG back then. I don't think this car had a 261 though! I will keep looking, thanks for the tip!
-- Edited by EL-Swervo on Thursday 10th of March 2011 07:57:14 PM
It would be great to hear from a master of the 261. I have had a look around the internet and so far have had no luck. I have found a couple of things, like when he won, along with Gary Beck, the NHRA top fuel world champs in 1973. The Beck & Peeks Team it seems were BIG back then. I don't think this car had a 261 though! I will keep looking, thanks for the tip!
-- Edited by EL-Swervo on Thursday 10th of March 2011 07:57:14 PM
Mr. Peets had a wonderful history dealing with racers of all levels and types of racing here in Alberta. There is a whole chapter on him in a book called "The Speediest Land Traveller" by Richard McDonell. While this is all interesting to read, it doesn't help your quest to up grade your 261.
I'll e-mail an old friend who raced with me in the 70's and see if he knows of any info on the 261 and performance enhancements for it.
I'll pass any info to you.
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"Repulsive since 1959"
2015 Camaro SS1 2014 GMC Sierra 1969 GTO 2005 Dodge Daytona Short Box Regular cab P/U 1979 Pontiac Grand Prix Enduro stock car
Mr. Peets had a wonderful history dealing with racers of all levels and types of racing here in Alberta. There is a whole chapter on him in a book called "The Speediest Land Traveller" by Richard McDonell. While this is all interesting to read, it doesn't help your quest to up grade your 261.
I'll e-mail an old friend who raced with me in the 70's and see if he knows of any info on the 261 and performance enhancements for it.
I'll pass any info to you.
That would be great, thank you DT! and I will look out for that Book,
Will do, are you going to Wheels Day over here in Hants? If you havn't been,its a good day it attracts quite a few Ponchos,( among others!). Good Friday 22nd April. Its even better if it dosn't rain, sleet, snow................
Well I've heard back from my racing friend. Here's a run down of info that he passed on to me from back in the day:
-Ray Peets made his own cam shafts specifically for racing 261's. -Racers back then spent a lot of money on heads. Porting, polishing and lightened rocker arms. -216, 235, 261, and 302 inlines were all the same family. -it was desirable to use the GMC "302" inline 6 head.....if you could find one. -guys would "fly cut" the pistons for higher lift and longer duration. -1953 Corvettes had the "Blue Flame" inline 6 eather 235 or 261. They had different cams and a multicarb set up. Parts could be used for racing. -You could get 5500 RPM's out of these engine however some guys could get 6500 RPM's.
As a foot note, Toyota bought the entire rites to the 261 in the late 70's. They used the bottom ends, blocks and other engine componants as the basis of thier Diesel Landcruiser SUV's back then.
There is a wealth of info on this engine plus many other inline engines at http://inliners.org
Enjoy!
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"Repulsive since 1959"
2015 Camaro SS1 2014 GMC Sierra 1969 GTO 2005 Dodge Daytona Short Box Regular cab P/U 1979 Pontiac Grand Prix Enduro stock car
A correction: Fly cutting a piston would mean "flat-topping" in order to raise compression. Duration and lift refers to camshafts.
Also, another means to add a performance touch, one could "deck" a head, and bring the compression up by removing material from the deck or matting surface of the head to block area.
I'm sure Mr. Peets could do as little or as much as you wanted back in the day. Depends how much money you had to spend on your race car. These engines were in a beginner's class of race car, so chances are the racers only had Mr. Peets and/or Reliable Engine Services do as little as possible such as supply only a camshaft perhaps.
When I built my 261 powered 57 Chev stock car (there's a thread with picture in another area of this site of that car) back in '76 or so, I purchased a "Peets" special engine. I had no clue as to the enhancements of the engine at the time. I bought the engine only because it was a "Peets" engine, and just because of the name (I was 16 at the time).
There was another company in Edmonton that would cater to racers and thier machining needs. They were "Weldandgrind". Mr. Peets worked for them for a time. I'm not sure if they still exsist.
Engine machining is a dying art. With today's "Crate Engines" one would find it more desirable to just buy a modern engine with the right horsepower and install with no fuss/muss. Anyone who undertakes an overhaul these days hopefully can find a machinist with the right skills and interest to spruce up these older engines.
I admire you for what ever you decide to do to your 261.
Regards.
__________________
"Repulsive since 1959"
2015 Camaro SS1 2014 GMC Sierra 1969 GTO 2005 Dodge Daytona Short Box Regular cab P/U 1979 Pontiac Grand Prix Enduro stock car
A correction: Fly cutting a piston would mean "flat-topping" in order to raise compression. Duration and lift refers to camshafts.
Also, another means to add a performance touch, one could "deck" a head, and bring the compression up by removing material from the deck or matting surface of the head to block area.
I'm sure Mr. Peets could do as little or as much as you wanted back in the day. Depends how much money you had to spend on your race car. These engines were in a beginner's class of race car, so chances are the racers only had Mr. Peets and/or Reliable Engine Services do as little as possible such as supply only a camshaft perhaps.
When I built my 261 powered 57 Chev stock car (there's a thread with picture in another area of this site of that car) back in '76 or so, I purchased a "Peets" special engine. I had no clue as to the enhancements of the engine at the time. I bought the engine only because it was a "Peets" engine, and just because of the name (I was 16 at the time).
There was another company in Edmonton that would cater to racers and thier machining needs. They were "Weldandgrind". Mr. Peets worked for them for a time. I'm not sure if they still exsist.
Engine machining is a dying art. With today's "Crate Engines" one would find it more desirable to just buy a modern engine with the right horsepower and install with no fuss/muss. Anyone who undertakes an overhaul these days hopefully can find a machinist with the right skills and interest to spruce up these older engines.
I admire you for what ever you decide to do to your 261.
Regards.
Thanks again DT, the talk on Saturday night was of Inline "improvements" as we read your last post via cell phone in the bar. My mate has a '59 Chevy wagon with a tired old 235. I am trying to convince him that "6=8" and he is keen, but he is tempted to go 350/350 when he does make a move to rectify his car,(and get an auto). I wouldn't blame him if he binned the 6 just like most people do. Its so much easier, even with the changes needed to fit a V8,- I just want to be different!
As back when you describe, Its all down to cost, the stuff Clifford do is fantastic, but a little more cash than I have sitting about. Available vintage or second hand parts don't come up very often, its a shame that the engine with all the Clifford stuff on it that I have found is probably a 250 and not compatable with my 261. I will have to keep looking. In the meantime I may still get the 250 if the price is right, sort it out and sell it to my mate with the tired 235! although I would rather swap it with the set of vintage American racing wheels he has in his garage!( I don't think he will go for this).
I will go back to the inliner website and get some more ideas. I am all fired up now to do something about it, just don't tell the wife!
If you want to see "re-hashing" on in-line 6's, and pounding things down the road on a budget, then you really need to go to Cuba. Those poor guys are keeping family stuff running that is older than Moses, anda lot of the GM stuff have inline 6's! You really have to pat them on the back, plus stop and realize "We can do it" with the resources that we have in the free world.
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"Repulsive since 1959"
2015 Camaro SS1 2014 GMC Sierra 1969 GTO 2005 Dodge Daytona Short Box Regular cab P/U 1979 Pontiac Grand Prix Enduro stock car
I recently picked my 261 up from the machine shop where I had them build it into a Cadillac Stroker. I knew nothing about the Caddy stroker conversion until I took my motor in to get rebuilt. Coincidentally, another guy had dropped his 261 off with an article downloaded from the Internet describing the use of 292 rods, an offset ground crank and the pistons from an 80's Cadillac 368. Depending on your bore size you can expect displacement to be between 281 and 290. If you google Cadillac Stroker 261 you should find the article written by Tom Langdon from Langdons Stovebolt Engine Company. I am looking forward to getting it into my '62 wagon. It will be backed by a 700r4 tranny with the help of an adapter plate that I purchased from Tom Langdon and some new gears in the rear. Hope your wagon is progressing also. Steve
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1962 Parisienne 2drht, 350/350. Ridetech full air ride
1962 Laurentian Safari, 261 Cadillac Stroker/700R4. Accuair full air ride
1963 Parisienne 2drht, 383 Stroker/700R4. Factory lightweight drag car project
I AM LOVING ALL THIS TALK ABOUT THOSE WONDERFUL ENGINES. I have been a fan of GM sixes forever and the 261....... well that is my favorite. Might explain why i have one in my 57 Pontiac. A gun to my head would not make me trade my 261 inliner for any bent eight. You can also try PATRICK'S in Arizona, U.S.A.. They carry most of the old speed parts for 235/261 engines. It would cost a fortune though, to have it sent to England. There was mention here that the 216, 235, 261 and 302 are all the same engine. That is not true. The 216 was a babbit filled bearing engine. All the other engine's had insert bearings. The 302 GMC six inliner like the 270 before it was a different block from the 235/261 motor. The 216 was not a good engine to hotrod for many reasons. Bearings and poor oiling with splash lubrication for instance made the 216 a weak engine for hotrodding. The 302 GMC truck inliner as well as the 270 GMC inliner was a great motor to hotrod but was very heavy. The 261 is superior to the 235, even thou they look alike from the outside. Internally 261 and 235 are two very different engines. The 261 is meatier in the bottom end with thicker rods, after all the 261 was designed to be a truck motor. The 261 also had a higher lift cam, bigger one barrel carb and higher compression than the 235. Another major difference between the 235 and 261 was the 261 having steam holes surrounding the bores and the coresponding holes in the cylinder head. 261's run hotter than 235's because of the bigger bore and higher compression. The ideal 261 would be the American version of the 261 truck engine because this motor had a real oil filter on it as of 1957. Your Canadian Pontiac 261 obviously would just have a by pass oil filter at best but they never came with oil filters from the factory. The 235/261 does not respond well to over carburation. If your 261 is basiclly stock internally then two one barrel carbs is all that will work well. Three one barrel carbs only work well if you have a hotter cam in there. If you have not done it yet, convert the original distributor to PERTRONIX electronic ignition. You use the original distributor and it is a simple bolt in conversion that is superior to the useless points and condenser. All the above mentioned engines are very old engines that are before 1963. The generation of engines that replaced them including 194, 230, 250 and 292 inline sixes were as of 1962 onward and have nothing in common with the earlier sixes. These later engines were more compact, lighter, shared some V-8 parts, made good power, were better on fuel and there is a ton of high performance parts available for them. As great as the later inline sixes are, to me they lack the tuff classical look of the early sixes. Plus the early sixes had a sweeter sound to them. I get a real kick out of keeping these old inliner motors alive and it is nice to see other folks keeping the old GM inline sixes alive and well. Cheers. George.
-- Edited by long stroke on Saturday 5th of January 2013 01:48:36 PM
-- Edited by long stroke on Sunday 6th of January 2013 01:05:01 AM
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1957 Pontiac Pathfinder Deluxe sedan restored 261 six
1974 Chevrolet Caprice Estate wagon low mileage original 400 V-8
I recently picked my 261 up from the machine shop where I had them build it into a Cadillac Stroker. I knew nothing about the Caddy stroker conversion until I took my motor in to get rebuilt.
Coincidentally, another guy had dropped his 261 off with an article downloaded from the Internet describing the use of 292 rods, an offset ground crank and the pistons from an 80's Cadillac 368. Depending on your bore size you can expect displacement to be between 281 and 290.
If you google Cadillac Stroker 261 you should find the article written by Tom Langdon from Langdons Stovebolt Engine Company.
I am looking forward to getting it into my '62 wagon. It will be backed by a 700r4 tranny with the help of an adapter plate that I purchased from Tom Langdon and some new gears in the rear. Hope your wagon is progressing also. Steve
Sounds like a great engine probably a lot cheaper than running a V8....
I had a stock 261 in my 62 Pontiac. Even in that form it had lots of power and torque. I kept the engine for an undetermined future project. Lots of speed parts available for these too.
probably a lot cheaper than running a V8....