Just joined this forum as I'm writing a piece on a member's car for a British classic car magazine. It's a '62 Laurentian wagon owned by Dave Jerrom.
He pointed me in the direction of you guys for a bit of help getting my facts right. Hope you don't mind.
As his car is a Canadian Pontiac, it's virtually unique in the UK and even most enthusiasts don't realise how different the Canadian cars were. This is something I'd like to go into in the article.
I know the Laurentian wagon was built on a Chevrolet frame with a 261 six, and that there are minor trim differences but I was wondering if anyone could elaborate on the differences between the US and Canadian models?
Also, could someone explain why there were these differences? In today's world of global car models, producing a similar looking model that's different under the skin for a market that's in the same continent seems like madness. What was it about the Canadian market that that demanded a different car from the US?
Due to the economics the US cars were not imported into Canada with out heavy "tariff's" So Gm built "their" pontiacs on the Chevy platform to keep cost in hand. The US Pontiacs have a different frame, suspension & rear ends, as well as the "true" Pontiac V8. there were no 6cyl. US full size cars built. After 1958 all US Poncho's were "wide track" compared to the skinny Cdn. built Chev. & Pontiac that look like they will fall over with the wheel set so far in!!! They look similar but if you get them side by side, you can see the differences, longer, wider, wheel stance, engines & even some of dash, diff. heater controls, strg. column etc. Someone else may have more info??? I have a 64 Catalina 2+2 Welcome to the site, grat bunch of folks here, ask all the questions you want, were here to help if we can, if not someone else will jump in.
-- Edited by dualquadpete on Wednesday 2nd of November 2011 04:40:23 PM
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Some times I wake up GRUMPY, but today I let her sleep in !!!!!!!!BLACKSTOCK Ont.
There are many here far more knowledgable than I am, so I'll leave the factual information to them. However, I would suggest that you have a look around in the various subforums, there's a lot of info there.
Some basic info on the differences is outlined on Wikipedia:
Welcome aboard, Ed! You will receive many answers to you question... Too bad I am not old enough to have lived through this era to have a better grasp on the concept! (Lots here on the site are though... (lol)
Welcome aboard, Ed! You will receive many answers to you question... Too bad I am not old enough to have lived through this era to have a better grasp on the concept! (Lots here on the site are though... (lol)
HEY, watch it Vince, I'm not that old, but was around back then when these cars were NEW!!!!!! Thats why I'm "INTO" the 50's & 60"s Pontiacs
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Some times I wake up GRUMPY, but today I let her sleep in !!!!!!!!BLACKSTOCK Ont.
(lol) Sorry... But I am a Centennial baby..... Was around for the last 4 years or so but too young to remember! That is why I am into late '60's and 1970 Pontiacs!!!
-- Edited by 67Poncho on Wednesday 2nd of November 2011 05:23:26 PM
Due to the economics the US cars were not imported into Canada with out heavy "tariff's" So Gm built "their" pontiacs on the Chevy platform to keep cost in hand. The US Pontiacs have a different frame, suspension & rear ends, as well as the "true" Pontiac V8. there were no 6cyl. US full size cars built. After 1958 all US Poncho's were "wide track" compared to the skinny Cdn. built Chev. & Pontiac that look like they will fall over with the wheel set so far in!!! They look similar but if you get them side by side, you can see the differences, longer, wider, wheel stance, engines & even some of dash, diff. heater controls, strg. column etc. Someone else may have more info??? I have a 64 Catalina 2+2 Welcome to the site, grat bunch of folks here, ask all the questions you want, were here to help if we can, if not someone else will jump in.
-- Edited by dualquadpete on Wednesday 2nd of November 2011 04:40:23 PM
What he said.
One of the things that has always bothered me a little about the 63 and 64 Canadian models in particular is that the body doesn't fit the chassis. The track is to narrow for the wide body of the Pontiac, and the wheelbase is too short.
For some reason the 61 & 62 models didn't have this issue to the same extent, and the 65 up models had chassis dimensions pretty close to the American counterpart. It's one of the reasons that in 63 & 64 I prefer the US Catalina over the Canadian models.
To understand why GM built two versions of Pontiac for Canada and the United States you need to understand the history of the car industry in North America. The automotive industry evolved out of the carriage trade, which for the most part started as a localized industry. Every town had a carriage maker or at least a blacksmith. As the industry matured it became centralized on both sides of the border. Because of the larger US market the US manufactures had larger economies of scale and thus they were able to sell US made cars in Canada cheaper than the Canadian manufactures. As more and more cars were made and shipped into Canada the local manufactures, backed by the unions, started to put pressure on the Canadian government to protect their businesses. Thus the Canadian government imposed very high import duties on cars made in the US. This started in the 1930s and continued until the US and Canadian governments signed a free trade act. During this time GM was forced to set up separate manufacturing plants in Canada. This worked well except for Pontiac.
During the 1960s GM had five key brands. They were; Chevrolet, Pontiac, Buick, Oldsmobile and Cadillac. Chevrolet and Pontiac were the two mass brands while Buick and Oldsmobile were the upscale brands. Cadillac was the luxury brand. The market accepted the higher price on Buicks, Oldsmobiles and Cadillacs because the alternative option which was to set up separate plants in Canada which would have been too prohibitive. The problem was what to do with Pontiac. Pontiac was a direct competing brand to Chevrolet and adding a tax on US made Pontiacs would have priced them out of the market. Thus GM decided to use Chevrolet running gear and separate Pontiac styled bodies.
For example Im an original owner of a 1967 Canadian Pontiac Beaumont which is mechanically identical to a 1967 Canadian or US Chevrolet Chevelle. The only differences between the two models are some exterior trim items and the interiors. The doors, hoods, trunk lids, roof, fenders and rear quarter panels are identical. In fact the Canadian Beaumont was made on the same assembly line as the Canadian Chevelle.
Gm wasnt the only manufacture doing this. Ford and Chrysler had similar manufacturing and model differences.
Firstly I'd like to say a huge thanks to everyone who's replied to my thread. There is some fantastic information here, great web links and a superb synopsis from Coop. I'll enjoy ploughing through those web sites and it's given me a huge help in putting together this article.
Love the cars you guys have. These hybrid Pontiacs are a fascinating niche in GM's history. Maybe I'll have one myself some day...
Regarding the tarrifs and reason for producing a cheaper Pontiac in Canada, I agree with all that has been posted so far. Another reason for this is the Canadian dealer network and the paring of divisions at a dealership. In Canada you had Chevrolet-Oldsmobile with Chevy being the value division (or loss-leader if you will), Olds the upscale. We also had Pontiac-Buick-GMC (and often Cadillac) at another dealership. I this case Pontiac was the "value" division and Buick the upscale with Cadillac at the top. Back then there were "captive imports" peddled at GM dealers, but in Canada it was usually the British Vauxhall (branded as Epic at Chevy dealers, Vauxhall at Pontiac dealers).
It costs money to set up body dies and stamping equipment, and it takes a certain number of units produced before you recoup the cost. By pairing Chevy & Pontiac and sharing stampings under the sheetmetal you economize on stampings, reduce parts stocking (hey, they both used Chevrolet parts). Economics, plus injecting a little Canadian pride into the exclusive Canadian series to give them appeal.
In the U.S. you would find different GM divisions paired, like Chevrolet-Buick (the Buick-Opel connection was a normal one in the U.S.)
-- Edited by CdnGMfan on Thursday 3rd of November 2011 07:54:47 PM
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67 Chevelle Malibu Sport Coupe, Oshawa-built 250 PG never disturbed.
In garage, 296 cid inline six & TH350...
Cam, Toronto.
I don't judge a man by how far he's fallen, but by how far back he bounces - Patton
Another big factor in this story is that in the U.S. a Pontiac was a much more expensive car than a Chevrolet. As the Canadian market was much smaller than the U.S market there were fewer Canadians who wanted or could afford more than a base car. The Canadian Pontiac was created so every community could have a Chevrolet and Pontiac dealer with equally priced cars. For anyone who wanted a more expensive car the Chevrolet dealer usually offered Oldsmobile and the Pontiac dealer offered Buick. As stated the Canadian Pontiac used a Chevrolet chassis and drivetrain to keep costs equal, although Pontiacs used Chevrolets 261 truck engine rather than the 235 six that powered Chevrolets during the 50's and early 60's. Prior to this, U.S. Pontiacs were typically powered by flat head straight eight engines and Canadian Pontiacs used Chevrolets overhead valve in line sixes. With minor exceptions Canadian Pontiacs were powered with the same V8 engines that were offered in Chevrolets from 1955 to 1970. During the early 1970's Canadian Pontiacs could be powered by either a Chevrolet or U.S. Pontiac V8 engine. Eventually the U.S. Pontiac V8 engine was dropped completely so essentially U.S. Pontiacs became Canadian Pontiacs. The same thing happened across town at the Ford/Mercury dealers. Canadian Mercury dealers offered a Meteor to compete with lower priced Fords and Ford dealers offered a Monarch to compete with the higher priced Mercury. In the U.S. Dodge cars were more expensive than Plymouth and had a longer wheel base. In Canada, Dodge and Plymouth were basicly equal in price and wheel base and many Canadian models were also unique to Canada.
Also remember, GM Canada was a dvision of General Motors, just like Pontiac Motor Divison was in the USA. Canada's population was and still is 1/10 of the US so the market was very small, often GM Canada's entire sales were less than one US Divison such as Chevrolet. Per capita income was much lower in Canada than USA and this soci-econmic factor was considered in producing and marketing the cars as pointed out by 64 Custom Sport many if not most Pontiacs were equipped with sixes or small V8's.
Pontiac Motor Division did not exist in Canada, the entity that produced the cars was GM Canada. Parts that were branded with PMD or Pontiac Motor Divsion were blank in Canada, same goes for similarly branded Chevy parts in USA, we are all familar with the bullseyes on Rally Wheels.
Cars were built with Canadian sourced parts and the engines and many other parts came from McKinnon in St. Catharines.
Ed I would be interested to read your article on the wagon when done. I own a '62 Laurentian wagon as well, it's my daily driver when it's not hibernating for the winter. Steve
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1962 Parisienne 2drht, 350/350. Ridetech full air ride
1962 Laurentian Safari, 261 Cadillac Stroker/700R4. Accuair full air ride
1963 Parisienne 2drht, 383 Stroker/700R4. Factory lightweight drag car project
Believe it had to do with the Auto Pac? agreement between the States and Canada. IMO the 55-57 Canadian Pontiacs were better built because they didn't use the old steering and frame but the later American Pontiacs got rid of the x frame the Canadian Pontiacs used which was a very good thing. American Pontiacs always had more power.
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Canadian 55 Pontiac with an American Pontiac power train. Best of both worlds!
GM of Canada first starting using Chevrolet components in indigenous Pontiacs in 1938 Model Year, and also at the same time, engines in Maple Leaf (GMC clones sold through Chevy dealers) and GMCs.
In the export market, in 1958 Chevy and Pontiac rhd cars started using Chevy dashboards, and then again in 1959-60 [though rhd Pontiacs had round and not bow-tie indicator repeaters, and 'Pontiac' not 'Chevrolet' or 'Bel Air' or 'Impala' scrip on glove-boxes], but 1961-4 they used the lhd Pontiac dash transposed in both Chevy and Pontiac cars. In 1965-8 they used the lhd Chevy dash and finally in 1969 the lhd Chevy dash.
I gather that in 1968 Canadian Pontiacs moved to the slightly-wider Chevy wagon chassis.
Of course all this interchange with Chevrolet meant a bonus in export sales. The 1962-3 Swiss-assembled Chevrolet Beaumont was the epitome of this: Chevy II 300 running gear and internal trip with an Acadian Beaumont body.
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Automotive Historian, Author and Journalist Deputy Editor, VINTAGE ROADSCENE Southampton, England
Not always. Take 1970 as an example. Top engine in a Bonneville was 455 at 360 HP, top engine in a Grande Parisienne was 454 at 390 HP. US Pontiacs never had anything close to an L79 327 at 350 HP either from the Pontiac 326.
'64 Parisienne CS "barn find" - last on the road in '86 ... Owner Protection Plan booklet, original paint, original near-mint aqua interior, original aqua GM floor mats, original 283, factory posi, and original rust.
...really good stuff...interesting comment from gparis7 re the Cdn. Pontiac's skinny track width. This is why when we put the 20's on and bagged our car we also added wheel spacers....voila! - Wide Track! It does really make a difference to the look of the car..
And on a somewhat-related note, who'd 'a thought that "poor little brother" Canada wth the perennially weak $ and little market for all those years, would now be the envy of the world economically, with US retailers literally lined up now to get into this "rich" market. The cost of a "nice" home in Vancouver is now about what you'd pay for a mansion in Beverley Hills. Times they have 'a changed...!
