Driving Survellance: What Does Your New Car Know About You?

Canadian Poncho · A Poncho Legend!

Driving Survellance: What Does Your New Car Know About You?

CdnGMfan · Canadian Poncho Superstar!

Ever since OBD II cars have been retaining much driving data. On my new VW it has the date & time set so everything can be verified down to the second. Setting the date & time wrong could throw the data into inadmissible territory, but it isn't as though I were on Cannonball Run trying to hide from the law. In the U.S. you can plead the 5th to avoid self-incrimination, but your car cannot and will be used to testify against you.

What is disturbing is how they can collect and interpret driving data. "Oh, we think you accelerate & brake too hard. We are placing you in an assigned risk category & making you pay for Facility Insurance." Pound Sand! Use an official driving abstract for that. Someone bearing down on you so you nail the throttle? Insurance will see you as a lead-foot. Indeed, Childhood's End is upon us.

If you really think about it, your whole day/week/month/year can likely be reconstructed using surveillance data. Walk on a street? Go through an intersection? Enter a mall? Pay using a card? Use your smart (sic) phone? Your life is now an open book.

Meanwhile this week in Toronto they have quietly dropped the speed limit in many areas by 10 km/h. What changed? Not the laws of physics, optics, the properties of friction, nope. It is pedestrians & drivers with their noses in smart phones, not paying attention. Not smart at all if you are a traffic hazard. So the speed limit is dropped lower because of non-attentive idiots, meanwhile the 85th percentile of drivers find a reasonable speed. I guess we are all lawbreakers if we drive on the roads on their designed speed now. A bureaucrat's pen knows better than all the engineers & drivers, O.K. doh

bjburnout · Uber Guru

CdnGMfan wrote:
Meanwhile this week in Toronto they have quietly dropped the speed limit in many areas by 10 km/h. What changed? Not the laws of physics, optics, the properties of friction, nope. It is pedestrians & drivers with their noses in smart phones, not paying attention. Not smart at all if you are a traffic hazard. So the speed limit is dropped lower because of non-attentive idiots, meanwhile the 85th percentile of drivers find a reasonable speed. I guess we are all lawbreakers if we drive on the roads on their designed speed now. A bureaucrat's pen knows better than all the engineers & drivers, O.K.

Coincidentally (I think not) Mayor Tory announced the new Automated Speed Enforcement (read photo radar) to add to their red light cameras.

And to carry this further, the state of Oregon is seriously considering charging by the mile to increase road revenue taxes. Apparently with electric cars and more efficient vehicles their gas tax revenue is down. Well Toronto wants to toll the DVP and Gardner probably for the same reasons........ cry

long stroke · Canadian Poncho Superstar!

Frightening to know all this and how you may be victimized at some point. My regular everyday car is a 2004 Corolla LE, i wonder how much of this scary technology is in my car. It almost makes you want to drive an old car to escape all this madness.

Pontiacanada · A Poncho Legend!

long stroke wrote:
It almost makes you want to drive an old car to escape all this madness.

... or buy an off-grid shack in Buckport! You can't escape the madness sadly.

bjburnout · Uber Guru

long stroke wrote:
Frightening to know all this and how you may be victimized at some point. My regular everyday car is a 2004 Corolla LE, i wonder how much of this scary technology is in my car. It almost makes you want to drive an old car to escape all this madness.

Right on George, sorta makes this month's feature car look very appealing..... smile .

Canadian Poncho · A Poncho Legend!

Well our '96 daily driver Accord is pretty stupid and that's ok. In fact sometimes it thinks the passenger rear door is open when it isn't.

MC · Canadian Poncho Superstar!

CdnGMfan wrote:
Meanwhile this week in Toronto they have quietly dropped the speed limit in many areas by 10 km/h. What changed? Not the laws of physics, optics, the properties of friction, nope. It is pedestrians & drivers with their noses in smart phones, not paying attention. Not smart at all if you are a traffic hazard. So the speed limit is dropped lower because of non-attentive idiots, meanwhile the 85th percentile of drivers find a reasonable speed. I guess we are all lawbreakers if we drive on the roads on their designed speed now. A bureaucrat's pen knows better than all the engineers & drivers, O.K.

I think what changed is that there has been a quiet war on the car in recent years. Urbanists, and now people frightened by climate change, are wanting to rid the world of personal vehicles with internal combustion engines. They see an idyllic world where people use bicycles or mass transit for their commutes, and look forward to a world where the only cars on the road will be electric self-driving shared cars - the total antidote to car enthusiasm. In their minds, if 'manually driven' cars still exist, they will be relegated to the hobbyist driving them on tracks, not unlike horse riding enthusiasts must do today since riding them on roads is no longer practical (or safe).

You will hear it being described by many things, such as improvements for safety, or carbon reduction, etc etc, but there is definitely a movement to lessen or eliminate cars as we know them. Don't mean to sound paranoid, but at times I read non-automotive forums related to buildings and city planning, and there are many people in those forums who actively denigrate the use of personal vehicles.

IMHO, lowering speed limits in urban areas are mostly designed to make driving a car less efficient and less convenient. Of course I don't doubt that today's group of inattentive drivers helps to fuel the movement - it's easy fodder to point out the number of people exceeding the limit by 20 or 30 km/h through residential areas in order to have laws and limits changed...

-- Edited by MC on Wednesday 18th of December 2019 10:06:54 AM

Prefectca · Poncho Master!

I often wonder how accurate the data is. When I was working on diesel trucks at work the driver trainer asked if I could access the data log on the Cummins engine. He was shocked to see that the maximum road speed attained by this tandem dump was 160 MPH! I told him that there wasnt any way that the truck could have gone that fast, and I showed him a fault code for standby power loss. The description of the code said that stored data may be inaccurate.

Paul

cdnpont · Canadian Poncho Superstar!

I don't have an issue with it keeping different amounts and types of data, it's the lack of control we have of our own info.

Beyond the vehicle driving dynamics, we should be given options in car as to what is recorded, kept or sent. But as long as we keep quiet about it, they'll never see it as an issue. If we speak up loudly in numbers and demand it, they will have to change. Sadly, most won't ever care about it.

When the system is keeping and sending personal data from our phones, then it has gone too far.

bjburnout · Uber Guru

Prefectca wrote:
I often wonder how accurate the data is. When I was working on diesel trucks at work the driver trainer asked if I could access the data log on the Cummins engine. He was shocked to see that the maximum road speed attained by this tandem dump was 160 MPH! I told him that there wasnt any way that the truck could have gone that fast, and I showed him a fault code for standby power loss. The description of the code said that stored data may be inaccurate.

Paul

160 MPH - YIKES!! Maybe it was one of the jet drag trucks disguised as a diesel. Did you notice any J47's sticking out the back?.... biggrin

Prefectca · Poncho Master!

No jet engines hiding in the dump box. What if the police had seen this bogus data after a collision? Would the driver be charged with speeding and then need to defend them self in court? So many times it seems that you are guilty until proven innocent.

Paul

cdnpont · Canadian Poncho Superstar!

I'm anxiously awaiting pop up ads appearing on the screen.

CdnGMfan · Canadian Poncho Superstar!

All I'm saying is my wife's phone was hacked and features were turned off & on at the will of a remote psychopath. The folks at Apple say "impossible to hack". What an ignorant thing for them to say.

You know, the Trans Am on Night Rider knew all about David Hasselhoff and offered advice to him. wink

68 427 · Poncho Master!

long stroke wrote:
It almost makes you want to drive an old car to escape all this madness.

biggrin YUP!!!

MC · Canadian Poncho Superstar!

I'm down with that. It's funny, if you looked at it only from a financial point of view, you could buy a bread and butter old car, and fix everything on it so it was perfect mechanically and driver-quality appearance-wise, and still probably be at only half the cost of a new car. Of course, that's doing most of the work yourself...

MC · Canadian Poncho Superstar!

MC wrote:
CdnGMfan wrote:
Meanwhile this week in Toronto they have quietly dropped the speed limit in many areas by 10 km/h. What changed? Not the laws of physics, optics, the properties of friction, nope. It is pedestrians & drivers with their noses in smart phones, not paying attention. Not smart at all if you are a traffic hazard. So the speed limit is dropped lower because of non-attentive idiots, meanwhile the 85th percentile of drivers find a reasonable speed. I guess we are all lawbreakers if we drive on the roads on their designed speed now. A bureaucrat's pen knows better than all the engineers & drivers, O.K.
I think what changed is that there has been a quiet war on the car in recent years. Urbanists, and now people frightened by climate change, are wanting to rid the world of personal vehicles with internal combustion engines. They see an idyllic world where people use bicycles or mass transit for their commutes, and look forward to a world where the only cars on the road will be electric self-driving shared cars - the total antidote to car enthusiasm. In their minds, if 'manually driven' cars still exist, they will be relegated to the hobbyist driving them on tracks, not unlike horse riding enthusiasts must do today since riding them on roads is no longer practical (or safe).
You will hear it being described by many things, such as improvements for safety, or carbon reduction, etc etc, but there is definitely a movement to lessen or eliminate cars as we know them. Don't mean to sound paranoid, but at times I read non-automotive forums related to buildings and city planning, and there are many people in those forums who actively denigrate the use of personal vehicles.
IMHO, lowering speed limits in urban areas are mostly designed to make driving a car less efficient and less convenient. Of course I don't doubt that today's group of inattentive drivers helps to fuel the movement - it's easy fodder to point out the number of people exceeding the limit by 20 or 30 km/h through residential areas in order to have laws and limits changed...

-- Edited by MC on Wednesday 18th of December 2019 10:06:54 AM

BTW, I hope I didn't sound too tinfoil-hatty there, but just reflecting the attitudes I've read elsewhere. I typically don't buy into conspiracy theories, but in this case there seems to be a lot of evidence to support it.

long stroke · Canadian Poncho Superstar!

I should find an old rusty Ford or Chrysler to drive in the winter at least and stop wearing out my trusty "New Age Big Brother is watching me Corolla". biggrin

-- Edited by long stroke on Thursday 19th of December 2019 04:56:12 PM

CdnGMfan · Canadian Poncho Superstar!

MC wrote:
MC wrote:
CdnGMfan wrote:
Meanwhile this week in Toronto they have quietly dropped the speed limit in many areas by 10 km/h. What changed? Not the laws of physics, optics, the properties of friction, nope. It is pedestrians & drivers with their noses in smart phones, not paying attention. Not smart at all if you are a traffic hazard. So the speed limit is dropped lower because of non-attentive idiots, meanwhile the 85th percentile of drivers find a reasonable speed. I guess we are all lawbreakers if we drive on the roads on their designed speed now. A bureaucrat's pen knows better than all the engineers & drivers, O.K.
I think what changed is that there has been a quiet war on the car in recent years. Urbanists, and now people frightened by climate change, are wanting to rid the world of personal vehicles with internal combustion engines. They see an idyllic world where people use bicycles or mass transit for their commutes, and look forward to a world where the only cars on the road will be electric self-driving shared cars - the total antidote to car enthusiasm. In their minds, if 'manually driven' cars still exist, they will be relegated to the hobbyist driving them on tracks, not unlike horse riding enthusiasts must do today since riding them on roads is no longer practical (or safe).
You will hear it being described by many things, such as improvements for safety, or carbon reduction, etc etc, but there is definitely a movement to lessen or eliminate cars as we know them. Don't mean to sound paranoid, but at times I read non-automotive forums related to buildings and city planning, and there are many people in those forums who actively denigrate the use of personal vehicles.
IMHO, lowering speed limits in urban areas are mostly designed to make driving a car less efficient and less convenient. Of course I don't doubt that today's group of inattentive drivers helps to fuel the movement - it's easy fodder to point out the number of people exceeding the limit by 20 or 30 km/h through residential areas in order to have laws and limits changed...

-- Edited by MC on Wednesday 18th of December 2019 10:06:54 AM
BTW, I hope I didn't sound too tinfoil-hatty there, but just reflecting the attitudes I've read elsewhere. I typically don't buy into conspiracy theories, but in this case there seems to be a lot of evidence to support it.

I believe you summarized it perfectly. I have also had the same feeling and thought I was just being paranoid.

Next time an EV driver looks down on you for driving with an internal combustion engine, tell then that at least your tailpipe emissions don't have a radioactive half-life of 87.7 years, or whatever is a byproduct of electrical power generation.

MC · Canadian Poncho Superstar!

long stroke wrote:
I should find an old rusty Ford or Chrysler to drive in the winter at least and stop wearing out my trusty "New Age Big Brother is watching me Corolla".

-- Edited by long stroke on Thursday 19th of December 2019 04:56:12 PM

Meh. Old GMs are much more plentiful and cheaper to buy in general, plus easier to get parts for. Probably wouldn't waste my time with a rusty one, just buy a good clean one and oil the heck out of the body and suspension. When I say oil, I mean stuff like Krown, Rust Check, Fluid Film, etc.

I wouldn't worry much about your 04, though, it doesn't have the level of computerized sophistication that new cars now have. It mostly just collects data to make the engine run optimally to the conditions, and adjust shift points to your driving style.

MC · Canadian Poncho Superstar!

CdnGMfan wrote:
MC wrote:
MC wrote:
CdnGMfan wrote:
Meanwhile this week in Toronto they have quietly dropped the speed limit in many areas by 10 km/h. What changed? Not the laws of physics, optics, the properties of friction, nope. It is pedestrians & drivers with their noses in smart phones, not paying attention. Not smart at all if you are a traffic hazard. So the speed limit is dropped lower because of non-attentive idiots, meanwhile the 85th percentile of drivers find a reasonable speed. I guess we are all lawbreakers if we drive on the roads on their designed speed now. A bureaucrat's pen knows better than all the engineers & drivers, O.K.
I think what changed is that there has been a quiet war on the car in recent years. Urbanists, and now people frightened by climate change, are wanting to rid the world of personal vehicles with internal combustion engines. They see an idyllic world where people use bicycles or mass transit for their commutes, and look forward to a world where the only cars on the road will be electric self-driving shared cars - the total antidote to car enthusiasm. In their minds, if 'manually driven' cars still exist, they will be relegated to the hobbyist driving them on tracks, not unlike horse riding enthusiasts must do today since riding them on roads is no longer practical (or safe).
You will hear it being described by many things, such as improvements for safety, or carbon reduction, etc etc, but there is definitely a movement to lessen or eliminate cars as we know them. Don't mean to sound paranoid, but at times I read non-automotive forums related to buildings and city planning, and there are many people in those forums who actively denigrate the use of personal vehicles.
IMHO, lowering speed limits in urban areas are mostly designed to make driving a car less efficient and less convenient. Of course I don't doubt that today's group of inattentive drivers helps to fuel the movement - it's easy fodder to point out the number of people exceeding the limit by 20 or 30 km/h through residential areas in order to have laws and limits changed...

-- Edited by MC on Wednesday 18th of December 2019 10:06:54 AM
BTW, I hope I didn't sound too tinfoil-hatty there, but just reflecting the attitudes I've read elsewhere. I typically don't buy into conspiracy theories, but in this case there seems to be a lot of evidence to support it.

I believe you summarized it perfectly. I have also had the same feeling and thought I was just being paranoid.

Next time an EV driver looks down on you for driving with an internal combustion engine, tell then that at least your tailpipe emissions don't have a radioactive half-life of 87.7 years, or whatever is a byproduct of electrical power generation.

Yeah, not to mention the rare elements required to make the darn batteries in the first place~

long stroke · Canadian Poncho Superstar!

MC wrote:
long stroke wrote:
I should find an old rusty Ford or Chrysler to drive in the winter at least and stop wearing out my trusty "New Age Big Brother is watching me Corolla".

-- Edited by long stroke on Thursday 19th of December 2019 04:56:12 PM
Meh. Old GMs are much more plentiful and cheaper to buy in general, plus easier to get parts for. Probably wouldn't waste my time with a rusty one, just buy a good clean one and oil the heck out of the body and suspension. When I say oil, I mean stuff like Krown, Rust Check, Fluid Film, etc.
I wouldn't worry much about your 04, though, it doesn't have the level of computerized sophistication that new cars now have. It mostly just collects data to make the engine run optimally to the conditions, and adjust shift points to your driving style.

Mark, i was just being facetious with those remarks. I am not giving up my Corolla any time soon. Actually my goal is to put half a million km's on it. Most dependable and reliable car i have ever owned. I would not trade it for anything on the market today, seriously. smile

MC · Canadian Poncho Superstar!

long stroke wrote:
MC wrote:
long stroke wrote:
I should find an old rusty Ford or Chrysler to drive in the winter at least and stop wearing out my trusty "New Age Big Brother is watching me Corolla".

-- Edited by long stroke on Thursday 19th of December 2019 04:56:12 PM
Meh. Old GMs are much more plentiful and cheaper to buy in general, plus easier to get parts for. Probably wouldn't waste my time with a rusty one, just buy a good clean one and oil the heck out of the body and suspension. When I say oil, I mean stuff like Krown, Rust Check, Fluid Film, etc.
I wouldn't worry much about your 04, though, it doesn't have the level of computerized sophistication that new cars now have. It mostly just collects data to make the engine run optimally to the conditions, and adjust shift points to your driving style.
Mark, i was just being facetious with those remarks. I am not giving up my Corolla any time soon. Actually my goal is to put half a million km's on it. Most dependable and reliable car i have ever owned. I would not trade it for anything on the market today, seriously.

Keep on truckin' George. I know it won't be a popular opinion on a Pontiac forum, but those little Toyotas are built to last. I'm sure you won't have any trouble racking up 500,000 kms on it.

4SPEED427 · A Poncho Legend!

Oh great, now it's the Canadian Toyota forum........... biggrin

Pontiacanada · A Poncho Legend!

4SPEED427 wrote:
Oh great, now it's the Canadian Toyota forum...........

My wife swears by Toyotas, starting way back with her big hair and 1980 Tercel. biggrin At least they aren't F**Ds huh.