First Engine Dispute this Season.....

73SC · A Poncho Legend!

First Engine Dispute this Season.....

Ghost Post · Poncho Master!

Back in the eighties I had an 'opinionated' older fella customer who was really pissed off at GM when I told him his Parisienne had a Chevy motor..
He told me "I like Chevys Ok but when I buy a Pontiac I expect it to have a Pontiac motor".

The next time I saw him he had a new Caprice and told me "I got rid of that bastard half breed and bought a Chevy since at least all Chevys have a Chevy engine".
Of course when he proudly popped the hood for me there was a 307 Oldsie looking up at me...I didn't say a word..

73SC · A Poncho Legend!

LOL, my mechanic drives an 87 307 Olds Caprice...good car.

-- Edited by 73SC at 21:10, 2008-07-17

Astro Jet · Poncho Master!

73SC wrote:

Well it happens every season but at last night's cruise it was the first time this year. A gentleman in his 60's walks up to my car and says

"That's a Chevrolet engine."

"Yes sir it is an Oshawa car" I say politely.

"Well Pontiac had their own engine, why did you change it?"

"No actually it is an Oshawa car and it came with that engine."

"No it didn't it should be Blue."

"Well sir you see most Canadian built Pontiacs have Chevrolet engines."

"That's ridiculous" and he stomps away shaking his head telling his friend I am full of it.

I love idiots like that. I usually try and make a bet with them (put your money where your mouth is if you are so knowledgeable) as to the authenticity but most of them just walk away. The easiest thing is to have a copy of your factory brochure to whip out and show them, but they would probably claim you had that fabbed up too.

73SC · A Poncho Legend!

I didn't really bother me that much, but I figure he's a guy older than me at a cruise in in Toronto, how could he not know ??? Last year I had a guy look under the hood then start yelling at me "that's not a real Goat, that's not a real Goat!!" I ignored him because I figured a Goat is a GTO and it is a LeMans. Then he got a pencil out and started copying the VIN telling me his buddy works at GM and he was going to run the VIN. I told him to go ahead and gave him my number to report back......he never called.

455gto · Poncho Master!

I've heard from a couple of guys that during the production of the 70 gto 455.The plant ran out of Pontiac blocks and put in Chevy 454 blocks.Did any of hear that or is it just bull?

Astro Jet · Poncho Master!

http://canadianponcho.activeboard.com/forum.spark?forumID=118110&p=3&topicID=15199513

73SC · A Poncho Legend!

It is definitely a rumour, ditto for small block Chevy 1st Gen Firebirds, although sbc 1st Gen Birds can be found in these parts, the real question is did they come that way originally? The link Hillar posted has it all.

455gto · Poncho Master!

Thanks for the thread.
Sounds like I have a better chance at wining Lotto 649,then ever finding out If GM did that.

73SC · A Poncho Legend!

The interesting thing about the 454 or 402 GTO story is that Americans have heard it too, that makes me wonder just a bit more BUT as they say Show me the money! Of course someone could make one up as a "Tribute", apparently there is a guy down south who's pretty good at doing up "original" documents.... biggrin

Astro Jet · Poncho Master!

What this really requires is a bunch of us getting access to the GM of Canada archives and searching through all of the 1970 build sheets till we find one!
Sounds like it could be done in a weekend, I even have a microfiche reader at home to help in the cause! wink

CDN2PLS2 · Uber Guru

You'd better start golfin' with George and Frank then. Didn't see you in New York.

Astro Jet · Poncho Master!

CDN2PLS2 wrote:

You'd better start golfin' with George and Frank then. Didn't see you in New York.

I've got no vacation till next month. So how was it? How many cars? Did anything by Scot win best of show this year? I guess Imran was there with his 73 - how did it do?

-- Edited by Astro Jet at 18:51, 2008-07-23

CDN2PLS2 · Uber Guru

It was Great,about 65 cars indoors in Concours.Best of Show was a Red RA4 Judge rag that Scott did last yr.Some Cool ones that I had never seen before too!Imran was happy with his score.Scott and Dan stopped here for lunch Sunday on the way back to Michigan.

73SC · A Poncho Legend!

Astro Jet wrote:

What this really requires is a bunch of us getting access to the GM of Canada archives and searching through all of the 1970 build sheets till we find one!
Sounds like it could be done in a weekend, I even have a microfiche reader at home to help in the cause!

You know I am trying to look at this logically. If it did happen it seems to me it would be the last 11 or 12 made for 1970. My reasoning for this is because the GTO was not made in Oshawa in 1971 so my thinking is the last orders come in late and the supply of 400's is short. It's short because they are not making the car in the following model year but Chevy engines are plentiful in that factory so to fill the orders the decison is made to go with the BBC 402.

Hillar if you can use you professional negotiating skills and get access I say the first place to start is at the end of the production run, if we find one we find all 12.

idea

And back on topic of the thread I had a few more "Doubting Thomas's" last night when I took the beast out. Three guys were really scratching their heads and one other guy was reasonable and appreciated learning about Canadian Pontiacs. Their was also a 57 Chieftan with a 347 Poncho and a 56 Laurentian with a 283 so there it was for all to see.

-- Edited by 73SC at 09:47, 2008-07-24

CDN2PLS2 · Uber Guru

Go Hillar,Go Hillar, !!!!!!!

dj · Veteran Member

hahahaha
this happend to me and my dad ounce and the guy started by sayin "thats a clean catalina"
me and my dad both kinda laffed a bit and said its a parrisenne and we said it had a 327 the guy replied "you meen 326" i said nope.Then i just pulled the maual out of the of the glove box and showed him the engine options.

-- Edited by dj at 03:46, 2008-07-26

73SC · A Poncho Legend!

Ya, the 64 manual is pretty clear on the engines. For me in 73 it just says 350 Domestic Production or Imported as the engine options. I quess I could have my GM Canada documents with me then show them the engine number when this happens again. LOL.

pontorquer · Poncho Master!

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the American Pontiac engines became available in Canada built plants back in 1971. I wish it would have happened in 1961, so we would have pleased both world ( Chevy-Pontiac mill owners ) earlyer. Myself I love the American motors, but I also think our Pontiac Beaumont is a very beautiful Canadian car that I'm proud of. I think they look better than Chevelle of the time. Anyway, could you imagine buying back then, a 1962 Parisienne with a 421, built in Oshawa ! That would have been awesome. Pascal

4SPEED427 · A Poncho Legend!

Agreed, but I am not ashamed of our 348-409 early cars, our 327 Acadians and Beaumonts, our 396-427 later B bodies. They're part of what makes our cars so unique. I wouldn't want to take away from that.

73SC · A Poncho Legend!

Just wondring pontorquer what engine is in your Lemans and where the car was built. As you say 1971 was the first year for 400 and 455 Pontiac engines in big Pontiacs but the Tempest/GTO line was built in 1970 in Oshawa with Pontiac engines. Our 1970 Tempest had a Pontiac 350 and GTO's of course had 400's or 455's. Having said that, Canadian Pontiacs however used Chevrolet 305's and 350's right up until the change to corporate engines in 1977 and even then while painted blue they were still Chevy. For the most part Oshawa did put Pontiac 350's in some cars but as far as I know they were primarily for US customers.

I suspect the fact that GM Canada had a foundary in St. Catherines making Chevrolet engines has a lot to do with this uniqueness of Canadian built Pontiacs.

As a proud Canadian I'd have to agree with C1 on this, I'm glad we never had Pontiac engines in Canadian built cars because it gives them their own distinct identity from US built cars. We had cars in the family with the Pontiac engine over the years and I am not saying they are not good engines because they are awesome. My point is just this, a Canadian built Chevy powered Pontiac has a special place in our Country's automotive history.

-- Edited by 73SC at 11:37, 2008-09-07

4SPEED427 · A Poncho Legend!

Yes, and don't get me wrong. I am a very big fan of the American Pontiacs. I love the GPs, Goats, Bonnevilles, Cats and all the rest of the lineup.

pontorquer · Poncho Master!

My car is one of 33 Pontiac Luxury Lemans 400 sport coupe ( same drivetrain as GTO ) built late 1971 in Oshawa Ontario and have the Canadian GM sheet to prove. Regards, Pascal.

73SC · A Poncho Legend!

pontorquer wrote:

My car is one of 33 Pontiac Luxury Lemans 400 sport coupe ( same drivetrain as GTO ) built late 1971 in Oshawa Ontario and have the Canadian GM sheet to prove. Regards, Pascal.

That is awesome Pascal. You won't believe this but I had a chance to buy one of those 33. My wife's older cousin sold cars at a big Pontiac dealer in Toronto. He called her and said there was a car given in trade that I might like. This was 1976 my last year of high school.

It was a lucy blue 72 Luxury LeMans 400 with a dual snorkle and dual exhausts. It had power everything, white buckets and console, Rally II wheels too. He told me it was mine for $500. I was in high school, no job and no $500! If I'd only known.

Just to put things in perspective, I worked that summer for my tuition at Uof T which was $760.

-- Edited by 73SC at 00:43, 2008-09-08

pontorquer · Poncho Master!

That's too bad, I missed on alot of rare cars as well and cheap ones too ! The more times goes on, the harder they are to find ! I almost bought a car like mine back in Feb 1996. I used to work in Moosejaw Sask. ( I am in the airforce ) and drove over 2 hours to go look at that 72 Luxury Lemans 400 north of Indian Head Sask. I took it for a test drive and that's when I got hooked ! First, I asked the owner if I could burn the rubbers to see if it was posi and he agreed, that 12 bolt wasn't posi by the way...then...I floored it and got up to 120 MPH in no time, I wanted it now but couldn't afford it. That Lemans was Sundance orange with white buckets, same drivetrain as mine but no dual snorkel air cleaner, Oh Well, everything else was pretty much the same... GTO drivetrain. The old previous owner was using it to tow is RV. Pascal P.S. I don't know if that one was built in Oshawa.