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Post Info TOPIC: What is a Muscle Car?


A Poncho Legend!

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What is a Muscle Car?


I was out at lunch and my Blackberry buzzed. This e-mail was there:

The Land of Lakes GTO Club in Minnesota, has conducted their annual Land of Lakes Muscle Car Classic for twenty-two years. It is the best annual gathering of American muscle cars  in the upper midwest. The organizing committee in 1986 put together a criterion of attributes that they considered to be a "muscle car."
The car had to be: built between the years 1961 and 1974, offered for sale
within the borders of the USA, and have a power-to-weight ratio of 12 or less
lbs shipping weight per each factory gross rated horsepower with no less than a
4-bbl or fuel injected induction system.

The club has a  "bible" that lists all the cars that fit these parameters. Starting
with the 1961 Chevrolet Biscayne powered by the 305hp 348 4bbl through the 1974 Pontiac Firebird Trans Am with a 290 net hp factored to 363 gross hp 455 Super Duty, there are 1,820 entries.

This is one organization's definition of Muscle Car, and it makes for a very
diverse and interesting annual display.


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Ray White, Toronto ON

1973 LeMans 454 "Astro-Jet"

Built March 9, 1973 - Oshawa ON

1993 Corvette Convertible LT 1

Built January 10, 1993 - Bowling Green Kentucky 

 




A Poncho Legend!

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"offered for sale within the borders of the USA"
-That counts most of us out.

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Poncho Master!

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I think a lot of people and clubs and organizations have their own definition of a muscle car. Its just, which one do you follow? And I am sure a lot of these guys tend to argue and debate over the definition of a muscle car as well.

To me, for example, I consider a muscle car to be
An american (US or Canadianbiggrin) classic car from 60s-early 70s (excluding Lincolns and Caddy's and certain other cars)
2 door Car
Has Big engine (V8 no V6's or smaller)

But this is what I like to believe as my own definition of a muscle car. I am sure just for saying my opinion, I will get a lot of complaints from others, but that's my opinion of a muscle car.

-- Edited by mike667 at 16:02, 2008-12-03

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A Poncho Legend!

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"offered for sale within the borders of the USA"
 
I wondered who would spot that first!

-- Edited by 73SC at 16:03, 2008-12-03

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Ray White, Toronto ON

1973 LeMans 454 "Astro-Jet"

Built March 9, 1973 - Oshawa ON

1993 Corvette Convertible LT 1

Built January 10, 1993 - Bowling Green Kentucky 

 




Addicted!

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I think 12lbs to 1 horse is a fair cut off point. Consider the average weight of a musclecar between those years. Probably in the neigborhood of 36-3700lbs? Compare that to the average horsepower of say 330?
The rule of thumb when it comes to the musclecar years has always been 64 through 72. The birth of the GTO in '64 and the death of high compression (Mopar), no longer a Hemi and net ratings in 1972.
People have their own difinetions. I'd take a 61 or 63 409 Biscayne over most cars between 64-72. Is it a musclecar? probably not by most peoples standards but it is a car that would kick the ass of most of them in that category.
Giddy Up - Giddy Up

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A Poncho Legend!

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Remember this is a GTO club definition so they really have to go out to 74, the last year of the GTO (sort of) and SD Firebirds.

I'm wondering though if a 74 GTO meets that 12 lb. rule....I am sure it does but must be right on 12lbs.

-- Edited by 73SC at 16:34, 2008-12-03

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Ray White, Toronto ON

1973 LeMans 454 "Astro-Jet"

Built March 9, 1973 - Oshawa ON

1993 Corvette Convertible LT 1

Built January 10, 1993 - Bowling Green Kentucky 

 




Uber Guru

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It seems to be a GTO biased definition. What about the '55 Chrysler 300, '57 Chev 150 283 fuelie,57 Ford 312 supercharged? I could go on and on but everyone is entitled to there opinion." Factory Hot Rod" is another term that gets a lot of controversy with no true definition. 

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i appreciated muscle cars, but i couldn't wait for the warranty to expire to start modifying what ever i was driving to put a bigger engine, posi or chrome. so i guess i'm in the hot rod club, because i think only my 70 monte or 71 elky might have been muscle cars. are trucks or wagons on the list?

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55 GMC, 70 Pontiac 2+2 rag



A Poncho Legend!

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Yes, trucks and wagons were on the e-mail but I edited it out, I mean it is a freaking book the guy sent me.
 
I will post the rest tomorrow since I need my office desktop to download from the BB.

-- Edited by 73SC at 21:02, 2008-12-03

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Ray White, Toronto ON

1973 LeMans 454 "Astro-Jet"

Built March 9, 1973 - Oshawa ON

1993 Corvette Convertible LT 1

Built January 10, 1993 - Bowling Green Kentucky 

 




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I would think if an L79 Acadian showed up he's be allowed in.....

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A Poncho Legend!

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Carl Stevenson wrote:

I would think if an L79 Acadian showed up he's be allowed in.....



I'd agree with Carl on this one, I don't really think the definition is meant to excluded big three cars built in Canada, it's really intended to keep cars like a Jensen Interceptor, Porsche, Ferrari, Jaguar etc.. out. I think the fact of the matter is they never knew they'd be excluding Oshawa 70 and 73 GTO's, Acadians and Beaumonts, 2+2's and what not. I don't think it is arrogance, just that they might not know.


-- Edited by 73SC at 00:07, 2008-12-04

-- Edited by 73SC at 23:35, 2008-12-05

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Ray White, Toronto ON

1973 LeMans 454 "Astro-Jet"

Built March 9, 1973 - Oshawa ON

1993 Corvette Convertible LT 1

Built January 10, 1993 - Bowling Green Kentucky 

 




A Poncho Legend!

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And for the record, I've gone to this show a couple of times and it's a jaw dropper when you see some of the stuff that's there.

Minneapolis has some fanstastic cars!

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1966 Strato Chief 2 door, 427 4 speed, 45,000 original miles 

1966 Grande Parisienne, 396 1 of 23 factory air cars



Guru

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Go visit this site;  http://www.africanmusclecars.com  They cater for old fogeys like me with my Malibu six cyl as well as big bangers!

-- Edited by Johann65 at 07:56, 2008-12-04

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A Poncho Legend!

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The rest of the message said:

In addition to the "Classic Muscle" category, there are also "Vintage Muscle"
(1956-1960) with 167 entries, and the "Modern Muscle" (1979 - current) displays
that are in a non-judged category. We consider "muscle" to be any vehicle that
meets the listed qualifications, be it Avanti, Muscle Sport: Corvett and Cobra,
Muscle full-sized: Bonneville, Park Lane, Polara, Muscle Pony: AMX, Mustang,
Barracuda, Firebird, Camaro, Muscle Mid-size: Tempest/LeMans/GTO,
Chevelle/ElCamino, Fairlane/Ranchero, Charger, Road Runner, Muscle Compact:
Chevy II/Nova, Ventura GTO, Duster, Dart. All body styles are eligible,
including 4-door sedans and even station wagons if they meet the power to weight
requirements.

This is one organization's definition of Muscle Car, and it makes for a very
diverse and interesting annual display.  If a real Cobraor Super Duty Catalina rolls onto the show field, no one questions its muscle car label.

And how about Muscle Trucks? 426 wedge Dodge pickups? 427/454 Chevys? Or even
390 4bbl Ford F150s?
***************


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Ray White, Toronto ON

1973 LeMans 454 "Astro-Jet"

Built March 9, 1973 - Oshawa ON

1993 Corvette Convertible LT 1

Built January 10, 1993 - Bowling Green Kentucky 

 




Poncho Master!

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I understand their definition of a muscle car and generally agree.  The lbs/hp ratio is rather liberal but I believe that is used in order to include the 71-74 models.

The GTO was the original muscle car when it was introduced in 1964.  The original definition at that time was a large displacement motor or high output hp, normally used in a full size model, installed in an intermediate or small size model.  At that time, 1964 & 65 the bench mark in GM was anything larger than a 327 installed in a mid-size or smaller car.
Buick was a 400ci motor in a skylark chassis
Olds was a 400ci motor in a cutlass chassis
Chevy was a 396ci motor in a chevelle chassis
Pontiac was a 389ci motor in a Lemans chassis
Exceptions were made when Chevy put a 350hp/327ci motor in the chevy II chassis.

In my opinion a Corvette was never a muscle car.
Full size Chevys, Pontiacs, Buicks and Olds were never muscle cars.
Cars built prior to 1964 were never muscle cars.
When GM started building the 350ci SB it altered the definition.  The LT-1 at 360hp and 350ci was a muscle car in a Nova.
The 300hp/327ci motor in a Chevy II through 67 was a muscle car.  But when they redesigned the Chevy II in 68 and used the 300hp/350ci SB in their SS models I don't think they meant the criteria of a muscle car.  They were right on the bubble at 12lbs/hp and on the bottom rung of the muscle car ladder.  In the late 60's, BOP cars were running 400 and 455 motors and remained muscle cars.  The real Chevy muscle cars were running 396 and 427 motors.

Again, all of the above in my opinion but I did live through it and I know what it felt like to ride in a true off the showroom floor muscle car.  I also know that intermediate cars were something new in 64 and they set a precedent when the automakers installed large motors in these cars.
Every true muscle car will jump sideways in the road upon full acceleration and that is one of my criteria.

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Addicted!

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I love that comment about jumping sideways under hard acceleration, until I put stickier tires on my converatible you had to be ready to go from shoulder to shoulder some times. And I agree with the vet not being in the same class, we consider ours a 2 seater luxury car, you know a/c c/c p/w p/s and 26 mpg.

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Poncho Master!

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I don't mind their description of what a muscle car is. We all have different opinions, and i think that's what's great about the car hobby in general. I like the oddballs, like a 63 Impala four door with tow package and 427 i saw in a calender once. I don't consider my car a muscle car, but it's the car i wanted. At least we all can agree.."don't crush'em, restore'em"

-- Edited by blacktransam at 14:26, 2008-12-04

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A Poncho Legend!

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forespeed wrote:

Every true muscle car will jump sideways in the road upon full acceleration and that is one of my criteria.



In that case my Cadillac Deville is a true muscle car, add in it also comes in at 9.2 lbs per each factory gross rated horsepower with no less than a
fuel injected induction system.



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Ray White, Toronto ON

1973 LeMans 454 "Astro-Jet"

Built March 9, 1973 - Oshawa ON

1993 Corvette Convertible LT 1

Built January 10, 1993 - Bowling Green Kentucky 

 




A Poncho Legend!

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forespeed wrote:

I understand their definition of a muscle car and generally agree.  The lbs/hp ratio is rather liberal but I believe that is used in order to include the 71-74 models.

The GTO was the original muscle car when it was introduced in 1964.
.

In my opinion a Corvette was never a muscle car.


muscle cars were running 396 and 427 motors.


Every true muscle car will jump sideways?


        1966 427-425 Biscaynes, are in the list of the "50 fastest muscle cars"  and 7 Corvettes!   Muscle Car Magazine 1988 list...


-- Edited by 427carl at 17:50, 2008-12-04

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the '68 L72 427/425hp biscayne was one of the top 10? fastest 1/4 mile times.
forespeed pretty well nailed it, but i think 300hp would be a baseline in the intermediate and smaller bodies.
an L79 327/325hp '68 chevelle is a muscle car.
a bare bones 350/300hp 4spd '70 monte has muscle.
you'd never forget a ride in a 'full size' L72 '69 biscayne.

-- Edited by 69 belair at 18:40, 2008-12-04

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A Poncho Legend!

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I am going, to get working, on getting the Strato Chief to "jump" sideways!   I guess it was so busy, running down the track @13.30@101 in 2nd gear with 2.73's , that it forgot to jump sideways... hmm.gif Maybe some E70-14 bias plys will help lol

-- Edited by 427carl at 18:36, 2008-12-04

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Poncho Master!

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My comment was, the original definition of a muscle car was big displacement motor in an intermediate size car.  It resulted in low lbs per hp and quick straight line performance but neither of these factors were part of the definition.
By 1988 the term muscle car had been interpreted, abused and misused so much that people came to accept it as meaning straight line performance of a factory built car.
Full size cars were family cars and Corvette's were sports cars but some of them were built for straight line performance and therefore ended up being recognized as Muscle cars.
In the 60's, muscle cars were being built with 3:90 and up gears, positraction, high hp and with the bias ply tires, that usually resulted in going sideways before forward.

As far as the super quick Deville goes, it is kind of like a hex nut in a round hole.  You are just trying to fit in.  

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A Poncho Legend!

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forespeed wrote:



As far as the super quick Deville goes, it is kind of like a hex nut in a round hole.  You are just trying to fit in.  



         no



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A Poncho Legend!

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foreskin wrote:

As far as the super quick Deville goes, it is kind of like a hex nut in a round hole.  You are just trying to fit in.  



Not really, just kidding......biggrin since I know how much you love Cadillacs! giggle.gif

The GTO was the original muscle car so you are right, Intermediate, big car motor and I'd add REAR WHEEL DRIVE.

-- Edited by 73SC at 09:55, 2008-12-06

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Ray White, Toronto ON

1973 LeMans 454 "Astro-Jet"

Built March 9, 1973 - Oshawa ON

1993 Corvette Convertible LT 1

Built January 10, 1993 - Bowling Green Kentucky 

 




Poncho Master!

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As with a Hex nut and round hole, only one size nut will in fact fit in the hole.  You my friend are the one Cadillac guy in our Canadian Pontiac hole.

I'm just an old school (carbs not injection) muscle car guy that likes to go fast and sometimes sideways (as in RWD).

-- Edited by forespeed at 10:56, 2008-12-05

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