Astro Jet wrote:

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Geez, does that mean a lot of city workers were sitting around having coffee all day when they were supposed to be working?  Say it ain't so!

Which one do you mean Ray, the one across from Eglinton Square or the one across from the O'Connor Bowl?

Much as there are a lot of people being seriously inconvenienced by this strike, I hope it goes on for a long time to try and break this ridiculous union and reign in their demands.  What world are they living in?  Unfortunately, what will probably happen is the same thing as in 02.  Miller won't have the guts to do anything to hurt his union pals so he will just wait until the provincial government legislates them back to work when the garbage piles get too high and start becoming a health hazard.  Then there will be binding arbitration, and the arbitrator will never take away a "benefit", like the ridiculous 18 bankable sick days a year they are fighting for - hell, I can't even remember the last time I was sick for 3 days, let alone 18 - why are city workers so sickly?  This of course is in addition to the 12 paid leave days they already get per year, plus their vacation - do these people actually have to show up at all to get a pay cheque?  They have a minimum of 40 paid days off a year (excluding stat holidays) and some have as many as 60!  And I hear Miller on the radio this morning actually claiming that a union labour force actually saves the city money vs. contracting out services.
WHAT IS HE SMOKING?

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O'connor Bowl Timmies is deserted. The reason they like that one is because it has a huge parking lot and they can jam in the city vehicles plus the Welfare office is nearby so that is closed down.

Miller can't be serious about contracting out, his brain has gone to mush!

 

Astro Jet wrote:

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73SC wrote:

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Miller can't be serious about contracting out, his brain has gone to mush!

 

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No, he said he would NOT contract out because having a unionized labour force actually "saves the city money".  Figure that one out...

 

 

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He is outright full of bullsh*t. He knows better, but is such a pro-union politician he can't tell the truth. Outside of the union members/friends there is ZERO support for this strike. The only consolation is Your tax dollars won't be spent by city workers p*ssing their time away scarfing back donuts. Enough is enough, lock-em out until they come to their senses and realize this isn't the '70's!

 

SHOULDN'T THESE STRIKING WORKERS JUST BE HAPPY THEY STILL HAVE JOBS IN THIS ECONOMY? THEY SHOULD BE ASHAMED OF THEMSELVES. 18 SICK DAYS A YEAR? IN 17 YEARS WITH MY EMPLOYER I THINK I'VE HAD 3 OR 4 SICK DAYS TOTAL. THESE PEOPLE ARE PATHETIC. JUST MY OPINION... 

Everyone agrees with you Mike.  Previous administrations gave this perk as a way of avoiding a strike, now look where it has got us.

This is always going to be the problem with public sector unions and government employers.  They have a monopoly, plus what do the politicians care if they give away something they can't pay for, it's not like it's their own business and the money would come out of their own pockets like other employers, so what do they care?  Raise taxes next year, the public can't do anything about that like they can in California, or just borrow more money and go deeper into debt.  By the time any one calls them to account, they will all be retired on their fat, indexed against inflation for life government pensions!

Oh No,Tim Horton's will be filing chapter 11 soon !!

They are trying to claw back these bennefits everywhere. My point is that all doctors appointments and children being sick are included in these numbers. How many times are your kids sick. So people shouldn't have this bennefit to take care of there kids? This bennefit isn't in the non- union enviroment but why should we go backwards. Plumbers charge 85.00 a hour and thats a rip off so who is ripping off who. Civil employees make less a hour to make up for bennefits. Don't look at the bottom to top up the top employees that make huge money for nothing.

65sssd wrote:

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They are trying to claw back these bennefits everywhere. My point is that all doctors appointments and children being sick are included in these numbers. How many times are your kids sick. So people shouldn't have this bennefit to take care of there kids? This bennefit isn't in the non- union enviroment but why should we go backwards. Plumbers charge 85.00 a hour and thats a rip off so who is ripping off who. Civil employees make less a hour to make up for bennefits. Don't look at the bottom to top up the top employees that make huge money for nothing.

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The benifits that the union members have negotiated in their collective agreements did not all come in one shot. it has taken the unions many years and bargaining sessions to accumulate the total amount of benefits.

The total package has to be looked at and costed out per employee. Municipal employee wages are always on the lower part of the scale when compared with private sector unions but their benefits are slightly higher. Yes they do have pensions but they contribute to the pension plan in amounts equal to the employer contributions and the pensions are not that large usually less than $2000 per month and than reduced by the amount they recieve from the Canada Pension Plan (CPP) when they start to collect it at the age of 60. CPP is appx $900 per month take this off the $2000 and the pension they are recieving is only $1100 per month. They do have an index of 2% but it is on the lesser amount of $1100. The only time they will see a large increase is when they start collecting Old Age Pension at age 65 . This amount is not taken away from their municipal pension.

Now if I was negotiating for the city the first step would be to stop the acummulation of the 18 sick days per year not take the days away completely. The city is on the hook for all the accumulated sick days previously negotiated. They will have to offer to buy the sick days back at todays rate of pay and pay each and every employee the monies owed at todays rate of pay not at the rate of pay 30 years down the road. This will be a huge cost for the city but will show the union they are serious about ending the accumulation cost and the employees will jump at getting the money now. To also end the accumulation of the sick days the city will have to pay out the sick days at the end of each year at the rate of pay in that year. After this is done in this collective agreement than they can work on lowering the number of sick days in future agreements.

For management employees in the city of Toronto there should be a wage freeze for all employees making over $100,000 a year each and every year the city demands concessions from the union. Furthermore all positions in the city making over $150,000 should have their wages reduced by the percentage equal to the claw backs recived from the unions.

All management positions in the city making over $200,000 a year should be contract positions for no longer than 3 years and these positions should be advertized every 3 years and those in that position should have to reapply and compete against all other appliciants for their job.

Every employee of the City of Toronto has to sacrifice something to keep their job not just union employees at the bottom of the food chain.

Al

My brother retired from the City of Timmins a year ago and his pension is not 70% of his best  5 years salary. He worked there for over 30 years and is a member of Omers. My wife is in management and her pension is with Omers and her pension is 70% of the best 5 years providing she meets the rest of the criteria. Perhaps there are two different pension plans with management getting the better one. I would like to get a copy of the last collective agreement between the City of Toronto and the union and read it to really understand the full package.

A strike is never about one single issue, although the media and management is trying to make the sick days a single issue make or break contract resolution and get the public on their side. When in negotiations management has X number of dollars to spend on employees and union and management have to agreed where to spend it either in wages or benefits with each side trying to squeeze something from the other. As a taxpayer and a union member I am totally surprised that the City of Toronto has not negotiated out the accumulation of the sick leave credits. The company I worked at  for over 35 years  had this negotiated out over 30 years ago. In order to be able to be financially stable the sick leave credits were paid out in 3 tranches over a two year period with appx. 2000 employees being eligable for payments. If $250 million is the cost of the payout the city will have to find this money somewhere or as you suggested go bankrupt. Raising property taxes is not a popular thing to do but it will be inevitable to meet the payment cost. Toronto residents are fortunate to have one of the lowest mill rates in the province of Ontario because of the population density. My property in Timminis is assesed by MPAC at $198,000 whith property taxes in 2008 at $5400 annually not counting sewer and water bills. A comparable valued property in Toronto is taxed at $2500. This assumption comes from the real estate section of the Toronto Star where they feature recently sold homes.

You will have to get a copy of the Sunshine List fot the City of Toronto to see how many employees were in salary brackets over  $100,000 annualy and above. I am sure you will be surprised at the number of management empolyees in these brackets. Do not forget this is not counting their benefits.

The point I am trying to get across is there is a growing gap between management and union salaries with municipal employees and the gap is getting bigger every year and this practice must stop in order to keep labour relations in good harmony.

The cuts must start to come at the highest paid personnel in order for the lowest paid to agree and accept concessions. These cuts must also be made public so the regular taxpayer sees the city is working for them and it will create at least a little public trust and confidence in our municipal politicians.

Al

hey im a plumber and i charge 70.00 an hour still not enough try paying my insurance and other bills for my bussiness


-- Edited by loud on Thursday 25th of June 2009 12:35:31 PM

Hillar, sounds like you live in BC!!! Actually, we're in pretty good shape re unions out here right now because Campbell basically crushed them. And his former Finance Minister Carol Taylor (also the former Carol-Ann Goss, Miss Toronto 1968 - a knockout then and still gorgeous now at 62...) gave them all a big fat signing-bonus carrot to shut them up and also have no labour unrest for the 4 years leading up to and through the Olympics. But I can tell you that if those gd NDP got in here again (not out of the realm of possibility) we'd be back to all the sh-t before you could say Collective Agreement! Winston Churchill said socialism is equality alright - equality in poverty...and he was absolutely right...

Best,

Neil/Vancouver (former Torontonian for 25 years)

The supply of private contractors to do the work is endless. Maybe those who work in the "Public Service" should actually practice "Public Service"