Non-emotional discussion about numbers matching

Canadian Poncho · A Poncho Legend!

RE: Non-emotional discussion about numbers matching

gparis7 · Canadian Poncho Superstar!

Depends on what it is, and what you want. I prefer originality in muscle cars, but I have no problem with building most things the way I want them. Case in point: I saw a factory 427 68 Biscayne post car in Charlotte last April, which sold for $44K. Too rich for me but if I could have had it I would want it all original & numbers matching (as it was) and for that, I thought the price was fair for this particular car.

Reality however is that if I ever get one of these cars it will likely be a plain 6 cyl or small block car that I will have to build the way I want it. And that's fine by me. There's no value in the original configuration; in fact by building it as a BB, I will have a car I want while at the same time most likely adding value to it.

67BBSD · Canadian Poncho Superstar!

69Laurentian wrote:

You should see people's looks when they ask me if the "original 427" is in my Laurentian! Depending of whether the guy is a jerk or not I'll say

a) No, it's a 350 car, the original owner's son put the emblems on the car in '78 when it was painted (the truth)

b) No, but I have another big block on the stand just about ready to go in (I didn't say it wasn't a 427 car)

c) Nope, it blew up while being campaigned in 1971. She ran high 12's before she let go. Original owner put a 350 in and drove it until '78. I have a correct date coded big block on a stand... She's one of 4 built.

The guys who picks at my 31 year old paint get version c..

I recall sevral people questioning me about the 427-they were all sure it was a 427 and I didn't know it-duh its a lot easier to change a couple emblems than the whole engine set up ! Who cares its a nice car !

67BBSD · Canadian Poncho Superstar!

best was probably my 68SD396 it had a CE block dated 1970, the original owner's broker claimed "numbers match" three more owner's marketed it as "numbers match" When I had it people would be impressed then question "do the numbers match?" I'd reply "CE" and they'd walk away-funny all I had to say was yes and they woulda still been all wet !

don't buy numbers-buy quality ! I seen that on a sign for a well cloned 68 RS/SS 396 4-speed Camaro at Waterdown in 1993-oops that was mine too.

sixtywagon · Uber Guru

I wouldn't have been able to afford my 65 BelAir with a 390 if it was a #'s matching car...

67HEAVEN · Poncho Master!

Thanks for all your responses. The answer seems to be that there is no real reason to value "numbers matching", at least no reason that can be articulated other than some people just prefer a vehicle with the original components still touching each other.

Please understand that this thread was not about the issue of clone building. That's a related but somewhat different discussion. This was simply about the change in value when an original "damaged" component (engine/tranny/etc.) is replaced by an identical unit but, of course, lacks the original numbers for that car.

I guess real estate agents could learn from car guys and stop calling those beat up handyman specials as "fixer-uppers". Rather, they should advertise those rundown hovels as.........."Numbers-matching original gems. Come see for yourself. This 65 year old home still has all the original shingles and windows, beautiful pink toilet, sink and tub, and quaint old kitchen cabinets. The vendor wisely refused to do any repairs or upgrades over the years as he knew buyers would want those original shingles. A few drip pails come with the property. P.S. The lawn is original as well. Bring a goat."

Fake68 · Guru

I own both.... a #'s L78 bench stick 70 Nova (awaiting resto) and several pieced together cars. I do love a nice resto but drivers are WAY more fun.

Tim's L79 Nova above is a perfect example... Drag raced when new, then one owner for 30+ years, and now getting used regularly ! It's not original but who can live with only 350HP... (or 325.... whatever).

As for the car show critics... That's why I rarely sit around my car at a show. I already know whats wrong with it. A couple guys were picking apart a friends car at a show until he asked them where their car is so he could go critique it. Their response was not "G" rated.

When guys bust my chops for having a "clone" car it's nice to be able to tell them I have the #'s L78 SS at home..... that usually shuts them down.

Funny... at the drags I don't hear guys picking at cars, everyone seems be trying to help each other.

We all need to remember... whatever someone else is in is their "pride and joy".

Pontiacanada · A Poncho Legend!

I don't care about numbers that match at all, but I do like a period piece, a car that is built of period parts ... parts that were available at the time of manufacture (whether stock parts or custom).

427carl · A Poncho Legend!

Pontiacanada wrote:

I don't care about numbers that match at all, but I do like a period piece, a car that is built of period parts ... parts that were available at the time of manufacture (whether stock parts or custom).

I like them 'looking stock" matching numbers is great for trailer queens...

Astro Jet · Poncho Master!

For me the issue is whether all the parts are "correct" and the original style and appearance (as opposed to reproduction), I don't really care about date codes, most of which can't bee seen anyway. For example, your distributor shaft wears out, you go and get a correct period GM delco replacement that looks and functions in every way the same as the original that came with the vehicle, that is fine. You have a service replacement block because you had some fun once and over revved the engine, that is fine too. I don't give a hoot about date codes on spark plug wires, and quite frankly those that do are nuts. When these cars were being driven as daily transportation back in the 70's, nobody worried or cared about that "keeping it original and numbers matching" kind of stuff. When stuff wore out, you replaced it. Now I prefer the GM style Packard grey/black wires with the correct black boots over the yellow Accels with red boots, but again, that is only so it looks correct. Functionality is key, these things are meant to be enjoyed and driven. As others have said, any 40+ year old car with all of its original parts is just going to be a car with a lot of worn out parts as far as I am concerned.

RDubya · Poncho Master!

Realistically i think it's just impossible for a car to be all original because like many have said, stuff breaks, and needs to be replaced. Once a battery is changed is it still all original? I'm with the look of original stuff but understand that things need to be changed. I welcome improvements that make a car better and easier for me to live with. I think it's cool to see these "time capsule cars" but what can you do with them? It is very neat that they exist as a reference for how it was put together but can you drive and enjoy an all original 50 plus year old car that's been stored away for 48 of those years? Obviously the tires aren't going to be original. No way everything can be original unless it's going to sit in a museum and never be started and driven. I appreciate them though, and any old car, original or not i think they all have their own character and charm. Original is only once and hard to maintain or re-attain.

67HEAVEN · Poncho Master!

All my tires still have that late-1966 St. Louis polluted air in them, and the rad still gurgles with water that came from the Mississippi.

biggrin

RDubya · Poncho Master!

Very cool.
I guess it all depends on the owner(s) and how well the car has been maintained. Mine was not but that's ok, i'll get it back to decent running and looking as i'm able to. How i want it to look. No birds on my car, not even little ones like were on it originally!! wink

Guess mine will be like the great majority of unoriginal cars and happy to be in the club. biggrin

87 player bird · Poncho Master!

What about if you ever changed the oil? confuse

eeluddy · Uber Guru

It used to crack me up reading Vette Magazine years ago. Numbers matching replacement internal alternator parts. One of the stories that finally made me cancel my subscription was a NCRS member telling about driving his vintage Corvette, (a 58 I think) home from a show when it started to rain. He got all flustered his P.O.S. was getting wet, and to make matters worse he lost a factory correct wiper blade. Oh No!!
Bob, I hope you don't waste any of your time with these type of wankers as they are only into the cars for narcissistic reasons and live to cut up non members cars.

67HEAVEN · Poncho Master!

eeluddy wrote:

Bob, I hope you don't waste any of your time with these type of wankers as they are only into the cars for narcissistic reasons and live to cut up non members cars.

I gave up on Corvette clubs in the mid-80s. I gave up on Corvette websites more recently. There are a great many good Vette guys.......but too many asshats as well.

wink

I've had my car longer than 95% of them. I do what I want with it. smile

87 player bird · Poncho Master!

67HEAVEN wrote:

eeluddy wrote:

Bob, I hope you don't waste any of your time with these type of wankers as they are only into the cars for narcissistic reasons and live to cut up non members cars.

I gave up on Corvette clubs in the mid-80s. I gave up on Corvette websites more recently. There are a great many good Vette guys.......but too many asshats as well.

I've had my car longer than 95% of them. I do what I want with it.

Right on !!