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Canadian Poncho Superstar!

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Do I go with "Historic Vehicle" plates?


Beyond the reduced cost of the annual permit, is there any othe advantage to them. I suppose there is a slight "I'm all original" factor to having them on a untouched car.

What does a new one look like? I've seen a few different versions.

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Canadian Poncho Superstar!

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Reduced cost is the most common benifit, but there are restrictions on the use of the plates. You can only drive to & from car related events, testing, & the vehicle "MUST" be un-modified & you are not allowed on the 400 series hwys.Most of us "ignore" some of these restrictions, but the guys with full blown HOT RODS seem to think they can put these plates on their cars. This will eventually "screw it" for the rest of us!!!

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Poncho Master!

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Here's some interesting information.......

Misuse of Historic Plates

Something that is often referred to the SVAO by some of our members is the perceived misuse of  Historic Plates. In that regard, here is the wording of the appropriate act:
Highway Traffic Act
Code de la route
R.R.O. 1990, REGULATION 628
Amended to O. Reg. 183/05
VEHICLE PERMITS
historic vehicle means, despite the definition in subsection 7 (1.1) of the Act, a motor vehicle that,
(a) is at least 30 years old,
(b) is operated on a highway in parades, for purposes of exhibition, tours or similar functions organized by a properly constituted automobile club or for purposes of repair, testing or demonstration for sale,
(c) is substantially unchanged or unmodified from the original manufacturers product, and
(d) does not have attached to it year-of-manufacture plates;

The SVAO would like to especially draw your attention to part(c). This part basically means that the vehicle is stock as the factory would have built it. If you run into some of those people who want to be a "country lawyer" and argue that their Chevy V-8 hot rod fits this catagory, just suggest that they ask the local constabulary or MTO offcial for an interpretation. In addition, the owner of the misplated vehicle has committed a fraud when he/she signed the license application as it requires that the vehicle meets the above criteria. Since the privatization of the licensing offices, we have had reports that some offices suggest that Historic Plates are appropriate for any 30 year old vehicle but such is not the case and will not get the owner off of the hook if charged with improper licensing. Reinforcement of this statute has been sent out to the offices by the government. Know the law and follow it is the best advice we can offer.
 The SVAO, along with a number of its member clubs, have been trying to get some new licensing catagories from the provincial ministry for a number of years and this perceived misuse of historic plates doesn't help our efforts.

With that in mind, here's director Bruce Stewart's thoughts on licensing.
Collector Plates

It is time for collector car licensing provisions to be revisited by the Ministry of Transportation of Ontario. SVAO representatives have conducted a number of meetings with ministry officials regarding Ontarios need for a Collector license plate and we feel that now is the time to reopen the dialogue. Other jurisdictions have Collector plates. In fact, collector vehicles are licensed by some jurisdictions at no cost in recognition of their historical value to the population at large.

Owner surveys in Canada and other countries have indicated that the average annual use of hobby vehicles is approximately four hundred miles or less than six hundred and fifty kilometers. This number should be borne in mind in any discussions of licensing and also in any discussions regarding emissions and testing.

Currently, there are only three viable alternatives for the plating of toy cars:

  • Regular plates
  • Historical plates
  • Year of Manufacture plates (problems will be dealt with in another issue)

Regular Plates

Regular plates are certainly an option for those wishing to use their older vehicles beyond what is allowed by the historic plate restrictions. Regular plates allow unlimited use but are expensive. The cost of about twenty cents per mile of use is certainly excessive. However, its not so much the cost as the principle in this case.

Historical plates

There are in excess of 9,000 historically plated vehicles in Ontario. Historical plates are far too restrictive for many members of our community who desire moderate use of their vehicles. We advocate minor changes to the Highway Traffic Act with regard to historic plates. The vehicle eligibility age needs to be dropped to twenty-five years from the present thirty and no charge should be made for annual license renewals. If the usage restrictions are rigidly enforced these vehicles cannot be used for regular transportation.

These vehicles represent a large part of the province's heritage and are functioning reminders of one of the primary economic engines in Ontarios evolution as the leader of Canadas development.

We recommend that the constraints on historically plated vehicles remain similar to those currently in effect:

·    The vehicle must be a minimum of twenty-five years old rather than the present thirty years. This would bring Ontario into line with other Canadian jurisdictions and the international community. Currently, in the UK, any vehicle 25 years or older, roadworthy and insured is licensed for free. While desirable, we feel that a similar program in Ontario is some time away.

·    The vehicle must be substantially unchanged or from the original manufacturers specifi­cations. This is unchanged but perhaps could be amended to allow modifications made specifi­cally for safety and/or environmental considerations.

·    The vehicle may be used on public highways for exhibitions, tours or similar functions or­ganized by properly constituted automobile clubs and for parades. This is in line with current regula­tions.

·    No renewal of an Historic plate should be required. The license should be valid for as long as the vehicle exists and continues to be operated by the current owner as an Historic motor vehicle. This change would bring Ontario into line with other Canadian jurisdictions and the international community.

·    The regu­lations covering historical license plates should be strictly enforced. SVAO continues to urge its member clubs to ensure that all abuse of historical plates be stopped.

We have heard that some insurance companies insist that older vehicles be historically plated even though they might not qualify to legally carry an Historic plate. This has been prevalent with modified vehicles and exposes the owner to substantial liability should the vehicles use be questioned after an accident. Illegal use of an Historic plate could be cause for the insurance carrier to void the insurance policy even if the company itself insisted on the plate.

"Specialty" or "Collector" Plates

A number of years ago the province of British Columbia instituted a "Collector" license plate. These were originally for use only on older stock vehicles but the program has recently been expanded to encompass modified and customized vehicles. Over ten thousand vehicles carried Collector plates in 1996, the last year for which we have data.

We think that the time has come for Ontario to follow this lead. A number of meetings have been held with MTO licensing policy personnel. These meetings were, to some extent, involved with a close examination of our suggestions which led us to believe that we were making progress and made us more positive than was probably warranted. One piece of information gleaned from these meetings was that, at the policy level, MTO seemed unaware of the flagrant misuse of historical plates.

A number of arguments were presented to bolster our case for a collector plate program.

  • The precedent for a collector plate exists in BC and other North American jurisdictions.
  • It would be less expensive for the average collector who, contrary to popular opinion, is not independently wealthy.
  • It could be structured to require less work on the ministrys behalf and, therefore, reduce ministerial costs.
  • It would provide a medium for tracking collector vehicles and would give them a bit higher profile in the community at large.
  • It is a small price to pay for the maintenance of Ontarios heritage, particularly in view of the vast impact of the automotive industry on our economy.

MTO officials would, apparently, be willing to look more favorably on our request if it were part of a national standardization of provincial and territorial statutes and regulations. We were put in contact with the Canadian Council of Motor Vehicle Administrators and a presentation was made to the national body but there does not seem to be any movement toward standardization.

The following restrictions are suggested for an Ontario Collec­tor plate. These are based on the best features of collector plate provisions in each of the provinces and states

·    Annual stickers should cost 10% of that of a regular plate.

·    There should be no age restriction on the issuing of these plates.

·    The annual mileage of specialty or collector plated vehicles should be strictly regulated (say 8,000 kilome­ters or 5,000 miles). If the vehicle exceeds this limit the owner must, at renewal time, pay the full regular plate sticker cost for the new year after paying the remainder of full license fee for the year just ending; this before a renewal sticker can be issued. While mileage is reported at license renewal, we understand that these data are not stored in the Ministry of Transportation computer. This should be changed. In addition to the obvious consumer benefit with respect to used cars, storing vehicle mileage would be helpful in tracking mileage of population segments and could form the basis for vehicle license plate policy.  We are sur­prised that MOT is not presently using this data.

·    A specialty plated vehicle cannot be for primary transportation.

·    A specialty or collector plated commercial vehicle cannot carry a load for profit.

·    An original Ontario license plate of the vehicle's year of manufacture may be registered to the vehicle and used in lieu of a Specialty Vehicle Plate.

One reason for MTOs refusal to consider a different plate was the inability of the MTO database to handle another class of license. Database upgrades in the pipeline could correct this shortcoming. MTO proposed our use of a graphic plate (much the same as that purchased by Maple Leaf and Blue Jay fans) and a regular price renewal sticker. This was an interesting concept but increased rather than decreased the operating costs of a collector vehicle. We suggested that a graphic plate be used in conjunction with a lower cost sticker. This would add some cost up front but would result in long-term savings. The SVAO is pursuing the implementation of a collector plate in Ontario.

SOURCE - http://www.corskan.on.ca/svao/newsletterfall2006.html



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Canadian Poncho Superstar!

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Who enforces the use of Histotical Plates ?

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A Poncho Legend!

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As far as I have seen, we aren't even talking about something like that here.

Considering the mileage put on most collector cars and the low risk of an insurance payout, it sure makes sense to have something.

However, if it's anything like the gun control fiasco, or GST, the administration would kill any benefit.

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Uber Guru

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73SC wrote:

Who enforces the use of Histotical Plates ?



any cop with nothing better to do

 



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Canadian Poncho Superstar!

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The 400 mile restrictsion is a problem. We put on at least 4000mi. each summer on the Catalina going to shows here in Ontario plus our annual trip to West Virginia to the F O P show in Charleston in June. That trip is 650 mi. each way. Next years POCI is also in that location, so may be doing that run twice!!! Pete

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Canadian Poncho Superstar!

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My main concern about running "Historic Vehicle" plates is the restrictons.  The intent is those plates are to be used when driving to the garage for repair, to a car show, to a meeting, etc.    With my luck, some kid with a smart lawyer uncle would run a red light and crash in to me.  If I was not on my way to a meeting, etc, then theoretically I'd be driving without a valid vehicle registration, and the uncle lawyer nails me to the cross.   I've seen numerous people running "Historic Vehicle" plates on their collector cars, and taking the car on vacation.  In my mind, they're driving without a valid registration.



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Canadian Poncho Superstar!

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seventy2plus2 wrote:

My main concern about running "Historic Vehicle" plates is the restrictons.  The intent is those plates are to be used when driving to the garage for repair, to a car show, to a meeting, etc.    With my luck, some kid with a smart lawyer uncle would run a red light and crash in to me.  If I was not on my way to a meeting, etc, then theoretically I'd be driving without a valid vehicle registration, and the uncle lawyer nails me to the cross.   I've seen numerous people running "Historic Vehicle" plates on their collector cars, and taking the car on vacation.  In my mind, they're driving without a valid registration.

Before leaving for a "long haul" trip to show in states, I always contact insurance company, tell them where & why, & always get the same answer " as long as it's a car show your going to, no problem"


 



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Canadian Poncho Superstar!

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69 belair wrote:

73SC wrote:

Who enforces the use of Histotical Plates ?



any cop with nothing better to do

 



Actaully no. The Ministry enforces the use at time of registration by having the registrant sign a declaration stating that the vehicle complies with the legisaltion as follows:

Highway Traffic Act
Code de la route
R.R.O. 1990, REGULATION 628
Amended to O. Reg. 183/05
VEHICLE PERMITS
historic vehicle means, despite the definition in subsection 7 (1.1) of the Act, a motor vehicle that,
(a) is at least 30 years old,
(b) is operated on a highway in parades, for purposes of exhibition, tours or similar functions organized by a properly constituted automobile club or for purposes of repair, testing or demonstration for sale,
(c) is substantially unchanged or unmodified from the original manufacturers product, and
(d) does not have attached to it year-of-manufacture plates;

POCI is a properly constituted club event and anyone going there would be well within their rights to do so on Historic Plates provided they met all of the other three criteria.


 



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Ray White, Toronto ON

1973 LeMans 454 "Astro-Jet"

Built March 9, 1973 - Oshawa ON

1993 Corvette Convertible LT 1

Polo green metallic & tan  - Bowling Green Kentucky 






Canadian Poncho Superstar!

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dualquadpete wrote:

 

seventy2plus2 wrote:

 

My main concern about running "Historic Vehicle" plates is the restrictons.  The intent is those plates are to be used when driving to the garage for repair, to a car show, to a meeting, etc.    With my luck, some kid with a smart lawyer uncle would run a red light and crash in to me.  If I was not on my way to a meeting, etc, then theoretically I'd be driving without a valid vehicle registration, and the uncle lawyer nails me to the cross.   I've seen numerous people running "Historic Vehicle" plates on their collector cars, and taking the car on vacation.  In my mind, they're driving without a valid registration.

Before leaving for a "long haul" trip to show in states, I always contact insurance company, tell them where & why, & always get the same answer " as long as it's a car show your going to, no problem"


I'm not sure about where you guys are, but insurance (Collision, and Public Liability and Property Damage) and registration (plates, tags)where I am are 2 different things.  Typically, you need insurance to get your vehicle registered for use in your province or state.  It's the driving with Historical Vehicle plates, which are very inexpensive, and using the car for something other than going to a car show that is risky.

 




 



-- Edited by seventy2plus2 on Sunday 27th of September 2009 07:34:14 PM

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Canadian Poncho Superstar!

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A reference was made to Collector plates in B.C. and to lobby towards something like that. You can obtain collector plates for your car if it is over 25 years old after sending them pictures to show that it is in good shape. All you need is to have another vehicle that is licensed as your main vehicle for work or whatever. You can use it for strictly pleasure use but there is unlimited mileage and you can go as far into the States as you want for pleasure. It's very popular here as insurance will typically run about 250 or so a year. You can also do a declared value with them on your car and insure it in that way and if your car is stolen or written off they just cut you a check. The one catch on this is that all the drivers must have 10 years driving experience and I let my kids drive my car so I maintain regular insurance. The other thing is I take my car to work on occasion and with it insured with regular insurance and for pleasure use I can take it to work 6 days a month if I would want to.

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Thanks Guys for all the "facts"!
And now that I've been educated and have had the crap scared out of me, I think I'll just buy regular plates and pay the $70 a year for the sticker.
Perhaps I'll look at them again some day, when they come up with a better system that isn't as easily abused.

Cheers, Mark.

-- Edited by cdnpont on Sunday 27th of September 2009 08:51:40 PM

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Canadian Poncho Superstar!

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In Toronto Historic plates are exempt from Mayor Miller's car tax so that is a big reason for getting them in TO. That's $60 alone add in the $54 savings for the plates and that's pretty decent walking around money. Personally I have no difficulty or fear in using them on my car. I signed the Government declaration with complete veracity.

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Ray White, Toronto ON

1973 LeMans 454 "Astro-Jet"

Built March 9, 1973 - Oshawa ON

1993 Corvette Convertible LT 1

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Canadian Poncho Superstar!

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Way back up at the top ( 2nd post ) 24Pete mentionned not being able to drive with collector plates on the 400 series highways. This doesn't seem to be mentionned again. In fact other posts that quote qualifications don't mention this at all.
Is the 400 exclusion in fact accurate?
Ted
p.s. Does the QEW have a 400#?

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Canadian Poncho Superstar!

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norontcan wrote:

Way back up at the top ( 2nd post ) 24Pete mentionned not being able to drive with collector plates on the 400 series highways. This doesn't seem to be mentionned again. In fact other posts that quote qualifications don't mention this at all.
Is the 400 exclusion in fact accurate?
Ted
p.s. Does the QEW have a 400#?



No, it is another cruise night lawyer fabrication.

 



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Ray White, Toronto ON

1973 LeMans 454 "Astro-Jet"

Built March 9, 1973 - Oshawa ON

1993 Corvette Convertible LT 1

Polo green metallic & tan  - Bowling Green Kentucky 






Canadian Poncho Superstar!

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73SC wrote:

norontcan wrote:

Way back up at the top ( 2nd post ) 24Pete mentionned not being able to drive with collector plates on the 400 series highways. This doesn't seem to be mentionned again. In fact other posts that quote qualifications don't mention this at all.
Is the 400 exclusion in fact accurate?
Ted
p.s. Does the QEW have a 400#?



No, it is another cruise night lawyer fabrication.

 



When I got my plates, lic. office pointed out on form, that historic plates were prohibited from all 400 series hwys. I asked why, & the answer was to keep the antiques off those roads, as they could only do about 40mph. top speed & would be a "safety hazzard" I've ignored that, & have had the Catalina on those hwys, & never had a problem, but I do go faster than 40mph. but "never" over the limit, if you believe that last part, I have swamp land for sale CHEAP 

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Canadian Poncho Superstar!

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cdnpont wrote:

Thanks Guys for all the "facts"!
And now that I've been educated and have had the crap scared out of me, I think I'll just buy regular plates and pay the $70 a year for the sticker.
Perhaps I'll look at them again some day, when they come up with a better system that isn't as easily abused.

Cheers, Mark.

-- Edited by cdnpont on Sunday 27th of September 2009 08:51:40 PM




 originally historic plated vehicles were the ones that were subject to the appraisal for retail sales tax-at the time it was said that once a vehicle became historic it remained that way-never to be a regular use vehicle again-that said I don't think any of it was regulated that way and the RST appraisal went through ith all 20 + year old vehicles.



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Canadian Poncho Superstar!

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norontcan wrote:

Way back up at the top ( 2nd post ) 24Pete mentionned not being able to drive with collector plates on the 400 series highways. This doesn't seem to be mentionned again. In fact other posts that quote qualifications don't mention this at all.
Is the 400 exclusion in fact accurate?
Ted
p.s. Does the QEW have a 400#?



The pertinent section of the Act has been posted on this thread twice. I suggest that anyone worried about this read the Act (it is easily found on the internet) and consult a lawyer if need be or an appropriate official in the Ministry. It says what it says. If you can not in all truthfulness swear the declaration then you should not.

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Ray White, Toronto ON

1973 LeMans 454 "Astro-Jet"

Built March 9, 1973 - Oshawa ON

1993 Corvette Convertible LT 1

Polo green metallic & tan  - Bowling Green Kentucky 






Canadian Poncho Superstar!

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So I went to the license office and had a discussion with the nice lady there.
She showed me the section of the form that has to be filled out and signed when applying for Historic plates. NO WHERE DOES IT MENTION 400 SERIES HIGHWAYS. Just as noted in a post above it alludes to vehicles originality and use.

Someone is going to have to come up with more substantial info before I take them off my cars - and stop driving on 400 series highways.

Ted

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norontcan wrote:

So I went to the license office and had a discussion with the nice lady there.
She showed me the section of the form that has to be filled out and signed when applying for Historic plates. NO WHERE DOES IT MENTION 400 SERIES HIGHWAYS. Just as noted in a post above it alludes to vehicles originality and use.

Someone is going to have to come up with more substantial info before I take them off my cars - and stop driving on 400 series highways.

Ted



Ted, you have done the proper thing. As I said I have no problem whatsoever using these plates. I swore the declartion in all honesty and I do not "ignore" the rules and regulations governing their use.  As I said earler there are a lot of Cruise Night Lawyer   postulations and assertations which are generally a complete distortion of the truth and can best be described as heresay. Always best to get the facts for yourself. These sort of urban legends are far too common in this hobby unfortuantely. I am only familar with your 65 Custom Sport but I feel confident in stating it is in better roadworthy condition than at least 50% of the cars I see running around the 400 series highways around Toronto.

-- Edited by 73SC on Wednesday 30th of September 2009 10:58:42 PM

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Ray White, Toronto ON

1973 LeMans 454 "Astro-Jet"

Built March 9, 1973 - Oshawa ON

1993 Corvette Convertible LT 1

Polo green metallic & tan  - Bowling Green Kentucky 






Canadian Poncho Superstar!

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73SC wrote:

norontcan wrote:

So I went to the license office and had a discussion with the nice lady there.
She showed me the section of the form that has to be filled out and signed when applying for Historic plates. NO WHERE DOES IT MENTION 400 SERIES HIGHWAYS. Just as noted in a post above it alludes to vehicles originality and use.

Someone is going to have to come up with more substantial info before I take them off my cars - and stop driving on 400 series highways.

Ted



Ted, you have done the proper thing. As I said I have no problem whatsoever using these plates. I swore the declartion in all honesty and I do not "ignore" the rules and regulations governing their use.  As I said earler there are a lot of Cruise Night Lawyer   postulations and assertations which are generally a complete distortion of the truth and can best be described as heresay. Always best to get the facts for yourself. These sort of urban legends are far too common in this hobby unfortuantely. I am only familar with your 65 Custom Sport but I feel confident in stating it is in better roadworthy condition than at least 50% of the cars I see running around the 400 series highways around Toronto.

-- Edited by 73SC on Wednesday 30th of September 2009 10:58:42 PM

Ted, it was over 10yrs ago that I got my Historic plates, things have changed I guess in that time frame, I was just stating what MOT told me & I saw it on the list of regs. she showed me, when I signed the agreement form!!!

 



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Canadian Poncho Superstar!

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when i first went to put my vehicle on the road i called the insurance company. after figuring out what coverage i required, I asked about plates. they didn't care as long as it was plated. after one year i called back because i wanted to change my coverage and was racking up the miles (i was on 3000 km/yr limit). after they determined that the only thing i was changing was the mileage limit, still garage kept, not driven to work. i asked about the plates again. they were okay with it keeping the plates even thou it was basically a daily driver in the summer.

on a second note there is a car cruise or show every day of the summer somewhere in ontario.

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