I've been watching the auto traders, kijiji's, buy and sells, and other various means of advertizing in hopes of obtaining another nice 1960's treasure to drive. As I indicated in an earlier post, resto-projects are over priced and it appears that a lot of the 'for sale' vehicles are as well because many of them are still for sale a year or two later. What's the general concensus on where prices are going in this hobby? Gonna drop more, level off or stay about where they are? The people that are selling, are the ones that are pricing their treasures to move, not just sit there and advertize them month after month after month. Personally I think there's a lot more price adjustments (down) to come. What do you think?????
Prices will continue to tank, no doubt about it. People will just have to hold on to their cars. Canadians generally never pay what a car is really worth anyway, even at the best of times. Now that we are in this deep economic down turn, even more reason for Canadians to not buy or pay little or nothing for even a real good car. If you have to sell, selling to an American or even i hate to say, a person from another foreign country, is the only route. I am so thankful i do not have to sell either one of my oldies. If i had to i would jump into a viaduct. The situation with parts is not much better in Canada. Too little money going around. Most of the people i know fear for loseing their job, if they are lucky enough to have one in the first place. Cheers. George.
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1957 Pontiac Pathfinder Deluxe sedan restored 261 six
1974 Chevrolet Caprice Estate wagon low mileage original 400 V-8
Many restorations are percieved as "over priced". The question is...Over priced compared to the market or compared to what the restoration cost? The reality is that many are now going for less than they cost to restore. As a result, in most cases there has never been a better opportunity to buy the car that you want! Not the ideal market for the seller, unless the seller is also looking to upgrade. For example if: -2 years ago there were two houses for sale, one for 400,000 and another for 800,000 -Today the same houses are for sale for 200,000 and 400,000 In this case, although the seller would psychologically be angry that his 400k investment was not worth 200k (a percieved 200k loss)...he could now get a 400k upgrade for 200k.
If prices continue the way they are, I've got to think there will be fewer restorations happening. (Other than for the love of it, why would you do a restoration when it's cheaper to buy one already restored?) With fewer restorations, the supply won't increase. However, the current demand is seemingly exceeding the supply. Any with the Baby Boomers getting older, the supply will likely not increase. Having said that, the "one-of" cars might still command the big bucks.
Bottom line, there's never been a better time to buy (assuming you can't go back in time 40 years ago) or upgrade in my opinion.
In my case, I've had this car for almost 30 years. I'll probably never sell it. As a result, this car market is really having zero impact on me. (The job market on the other hand...LOL.)
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"So when you spot violence, or bigotry, or intolerance or fear or just garden-variety hatred or ignorance, just look it in the eye and think... The good outnumber you, and we always will." Patton Oswalt
Hi George and Geoff. Thanks for your comments. I really like the fact that you have enjoyed your car as much as you have Geoff. The true reason for owning a vehicle is for transportation and you have obviously kept that in the fore front while also having fun. As for buying already restored vs. restoring it yourself, I think that has always been the case unless you are exceptionally talented at most of the work yourself. It is finacially better to slide out and grab one that $30g's have already been dropped into, rather than buy one for $5-$10 and try to make it look like new yourself. Unless of course you have the love for the hobby, the talent and the time to do so. Personally, I don't have the time or the talent, lol. (Or the spare $30g's, lol). But I do see lots of bargains and since the upcoming young'uns want Honda's, Toyota's and other foreign cars (for the most part), I cn only see a decline in prices............just a thought.
this is a thread i,ll be watching, as we have alot of sharp members on here that know the game. and we can count on all of them to voice thier oppinions. i,m looking forward to it.
I have restored cars for fun and emotion but I would never do another
Its better with buy them done and take advantage of the market
With the Federal and Ontario governements cleaning out any available funds we have,
The cars are the first to be disposed of... Baby boomers have their garages full of running cars and projects Young folk are sitting in front of little glass entertainment centres (there are exceptions of course) It has been mentioned before about the generation gaps, that saw old original Model T's etc, and then 55-57 's surpassed by muscle cars.. Now modern muscle is attracting young to middle age towards "ready to drive" cars.. I love the big B-body cars, but must admit my old 66 B-body does not attract the attention on the street or cruise night as "they" used to (and don't tell me how you only enjoy driving your car and don't care what it looks like)
I think the whole, "in the toilet economy" is killing the hobby.....
My cousin pegged it when he told me that the hobby was doomed as soon as people assumed that they could pay somebody to do the restoration on there cars. If we all went back to the back yarder restos it would be affordable. It might have a sag in the paint or a driver quality interior but at least the cars would live on. I feel that shows like BJ and others put peoples expectations way to high.
bj has to be, the be all to end all, when it comes to keeping mr. blue collar away from owning and driving the classic blue collar car. between, concours, pebble beach, and bj, i dont know who is doing the most damage to the hobby?
I couldn't agree more. Your cousin did pegg it. Fix it up the best you can with the budjet you have and drive it..I guess I better edit my post to answer the question. I think the "market" is going to move down a bit more. Long slow drop, I think it already took the big hit.
-- Edited by Steve C on Saturday 19th of March 2011 11:31:48 AM
Thanks for all the comments, I enjoy reading them all. Today, I am taking my 1968 Grande Parisienne 396 2drhtp buckets and console shift.......to the backyarder to work on for me. I'm not prepared to drop $15-$20g's into painting and body work on a car that in reality is only going to be worth $12g's tops when done, if it's mint. Okay, having said that, you can disagree and say, well, if you're going to keep it, then maybe it's worth it to do it right. Ya, I agree with that too, but when I go to Safeway with my car, I want to be able to park in the parking lot and not have to park up the street, 1/2 a block away because I'm worried it's going to get a ding in it. Dings are not nice, nobody wants one, but I don't want to have a heart attack because I got one. At one time, I wanted it to look like a trailer queen, but no more. Nice yes, but I want to enjoy it, like Geoff does. I don't want to lose any friends because they accidently spilled something on the carpet or didn't close the door soft enough for me. The trade off is too big and I'd like to think that I'm finally mature enough to realize it. I think spending $7,500 - $10,000 still leaves you enough room in the wallet to be able to: a) buy gas, b) do the odd repair, c) park close enough to the store, and d) still be able to sleep at night, lol....thanks again for the input. I liked Steve's comment........"fix it up the best you can with the budget you have and drive it"....kinda says it all. I'll bet prices are going to continue to come down......with $10g's being a common number for a nice car.
-- Edited by degodoug on Saturday 19th of March 2011 12:09:42 PM
Cheap hobby pay $20000 for a car today drive it ten years that's $2000 a year for a toy if it were to depreciate to nothing
Very good point. Buy a new car and they depreciate anywhere from 4,000-8,000 bucks per year! I figure if I continue to sink 2k per year into my car, slowly improving it year after year, I'm still doing ok. (Especially considering I'm more emotionally connected to it than a newer car.)
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"So when you spot violence, or bigotry, or intolerance or fear or just garden-variety hatred or ignorance, just look it in the eye and think... The good outnumber you, and we always will." Patton Oswalt
My cousin pegged it when he told me that the hobby was doomed as soon as people assumed that they could pay somebody to do the restoration on there cars. If we all went back to the back yarder restos it would be affordable. It might have a sag in the paint or a driver quality interior but at least the cars would live on. I feel that shows like BJ and others put peoples expectations way to high.
you and your cousin nailed it ! I still wrench and restore my cars,,,BUT it's only because I like what I do with my hands, my cars are not show cars, BUT fun and look good at twenty feet.
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later...rog
AADD supporting member !!
I'm a collector...not a builder!!Located in sunny central Saskatchewan at the lakehead!
My cousin pegged it when he told me that the hobby was doomed as soon as people assumed that they could pay somebody to do the restoration on there cars. If we all went back to the back yarder restos it would be affordable. It might have a sag in the paint or a driver quality interior but at least the cars would live on. I feel that shows like BJ and others put peoples expectations way to high.
you and your cousin nailed it ! I still wrench and restore my cars,,,BUT it's only because I like what I do with my hands, my cars are not show cars, BUT fun and look good at twenty feet.
That's what I want......good at 20' and spectacular at 40'.....AND FUN.....lol.
I also agree, look at my friends with the 41 Graham Hollywood, Put way too much in the car having it "built" for him, by restoration shops & body shop. Now he wants to sell it, he thought with the quality of work it would sell quick. Even at $ 79,995 which is way below what he's got in it, "nothing but tire kickers & low ball offers [as well as a few "skamers"] Too bad he doesn't know a thing about building a car, cause this was a costly build. Market has "tanked" & B-J & others are putting it right out of the little guy as said earlier!!!!
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Some times I wake up GRUMPY, but today I let her sleep in !!!!!!!!BLACKSTOCK Ont.
Thanks for all the comments, I enjoy reading them all. Today, I am taking my 1968 Grande Parisienne 396 2drhtp buckets and console shift.......to the backyarder to work on for me. I'm not prepared to drop $15-$20g's into painting and body work on a car that in reality is only going to be worth $12g's tops when done, if it's mint. Okay, having said that, you can disagree and say, well, if you're going to keep it, then maybe it's worth it to do it right. Ya, I agree with that too, but when I go to Safeway with my car, I want to be able to park in the parking lot and not have to park up the street, 1/2 a block away because I'm worried it's going to get a ding in it. Dings are not nice, nobody wants one, but I don't want to have a heart attack because I got one. At one time, I wanted it to look like a trailer queen, but no more. Nice yes, but I want to enjoy it, like Geoff does. I don't want to lose any friends because they accidently spilled something on the carpet or didn't close the door soft enough for me. The trade off is too big and I'd like to think that I'm finally mature enough to realize it. I think spending $7,500 - $10,000 still leaves you enough room in the wallet to be able to: a) buy gas, b) do the odd repair, c) park close enough to the store, and d) still be able to sleep at night, lol....thanks again for the input. I liked Steve's comment........"fix it up the best you can with the budget you have and drive it"....kinda says it all. I'll bet prices are going to continue to come down......with $10g's being a common number for a nice car.
-- Edited by degodoug on Saturday 19th of March 2011 12:09:42 PM
I could not agree more with this statement!! I bought my red 2 door to do a full restoration on and I'am still collecting all the pieces I need for it....So I went and bought my Gold driver so I could go cruisin and have some fun with my kids before they are grown and gone. Would I take my fully restored car to Canadian tire on a saturday morning, Not a chance!! Do I take my driver everywhere...you bet!! The only problem I have now is, the upgrades on the driver car (NEW VORTEC 350)are cutting into the budget on the full restoration car. I too think that the older I get the more I don't care about pertect paint or interior...Just drive it and have fun...who knows... You might not be around tomorrow....CARPE DIUM !!
yea as soon as you hire a bodyman to work on your car that is where the money goes.Carl is right buy a car done and save money unless you have wrench hands and do your own work.Friend was over yesterday took a door for some work to a bodyshop he had cleaned it to bare metal needed a heatshrink and put in epoxy primer bodyshop charged 11 hours to do this.????????He wont be back there.On the other hand people run out to buy new cars and they depreciate approx 50% in 5 years.I have always supplimented hobby by selling parts etc.Doesnt take long to have 20k in tools and equiptment in the shop either when the hands of time are busy.Hot roddin and rocknroll are 2 of the same...they will NEVER die
"... but I want to enjoy it, like Geoff does. I don't want to lose any friends because they accidently spilled something on the carpet or didn't close the door soft enough for me. "
My 8 and 10 year old stll often climb in and out of the car without using the doors. Or if we get caught in a light rainshower with the roof down, it stays down while everyone screams. I know that's not what everyone would agree with, but it's creating a heck of a memory for the little ones. (Que for Alan Jackson's song "Drive" to play in the background...)
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"So when you spot violence, or bigotry, or intolerance or fear or just garden-variety hatred or ignorance, just look it in the eye and think... The good outnumber you, and we always will." Patton Oswalt
Once the economy in the US recovers I'm guessing we may see collector car prices recover too but they may sink lower before that happens. I don't know if anybody has mentioned this but many of these cars are owned by guys like me with gray hair. There's not a lot of young people that are heavily into old cars. As us old farts die off, our cars will be sold and the supply may exceed the demand. I'd like to think that I will be able to sell my cars at a decent price but I'm not banking on it. I'm sure there will always be buyers but we may have to sell cars for lower prices. Most of us aren't into this hobby to make money anyway. In fact I think most of us dump more than we can afford into our wheels. We'll probably continue to do that no matter what happens to the resale prices.
but wouldnt it be nice to even consider breaking even, on what it cost, just in parts? i.m not tryin to get rich, but just breaking even, no labour, just breaking even..... too much too wish for?
From what i see for sale, there are still alot of entry level old cars that someone can buy and take to a show and shine and get some thumbs up on the street... (i.e. well under $10k). You won't find the rare cars and super restored cars at that price though... I don't think BJ hurt the market at all, all it did is put wealth on display, it always existed... cars sell based on rarity and then on build quality. That's pretty much the case for any commodity... there's an ls6 convertible for sale for $500k right now and it'll probably sell near that price.
For me cars are a hobby, I don't try to break even on a vacation....(would be nice though). Luckily I've never lost money selling an old car either...
Once the economy in the US recovers I'm guessing we may see collector car prices recover too but they may sink lower before that happens. I don't know if anybody has mentioned this but many of these cars are owned by guys like me with gray hair. There's not a lot of young people that are heavily into old cars. As us old farts die off, our cars will be sold and the supply may exceed the demand. I'd like to think that I will be able to sell my cars at a decent price but I'm not banking on it. I'm sure there will always be buyers but we may have to sell cars for lower prices. Most of us aren't into this hobby to make money anyway. In fact I think most of us dump more than we can afford into our wheels. We'll probably continue to do that no matter what happens to the resale prices.
I think you hit the nail on the head Jim. If you watch the trends as to what has been popular and expensive in the past, this has been largely tied to demographics: who was buying; how much money they had to spend based on their stage of life; and most importantly, what they grew up with and were interested in owning/restoring. The first 2 points will still be true, but the focus of interest will be different as the generations turn over.
I think the market may come back somewhat, but over time it will be for cars that were not the interest of prior generations (and likely not most of us here either). I don't know if it will go as high as it was before 2008; that really depends on how many investors are in the market vs collectors.
As a potential buyer for what were not long ago very pricey cars I'm happy to see the market readjust. But as a potential seller I might also lose out. Also agree with Carl: if you have the ability to buy a restored or original car it will be a better path to enjoyment than buying a big resto project - unless of course the restoration is what you enjoy. I am hoping to move away from big restoration projects to trying to buy cars that don't need a lot of work. That is becoming more important as I get older.
Lots of great points. Two strike a chord with me though. First there is no question that people with interest in the Golden Age of Detroit will be dying off so as this occurs old cars will trend downwards and be worth less and less over time. If younger people are into cars they are not into 50's-70's Detroit iron. Just check our posts about Tuner cars at last weekend's Performance World. There is a multi billion dollar business in the US around banking on Baby Boomers to buy and restore old cars and even they are changing, Check Edelbrock's web site for one example.
Next is Hobby. What is a Hobby. In the purest sense I think a Hobby is an activity or interest that is undertaken for pleasure or relaxation, typically done during one's leisure time. Hobbies are practiced for interest and enjoyment, rather than financial reward.Engaging in a hobby can lead to acquiring substantial skill, knowledge and experience, however, personal fulfillment is the aim. What are hobbies for some people are professions for others and this is a critical distinction on value and demand of cars. There are many levels of people who consider themselves hobbyist but according to my definition a car is something to pass leisure time with for personal enjoyment. I believe hobbyist will always be able to find a car at the price they can afford or are willing to pay to satisfy their pastime.
In determining if it is a Profession certainly the ease at which one can make money at it is the key. As long as there is a good demand you can probably make a living. Given the demand is from people born post WWII to about 1960 then it doesnt take long to see that the demand is dying. High Demand equals high prices, low demand means falling prices.
The problem as I see it is when Hobby and Profession blurs our vision and the big auctions are certainly a driving force in this.
I think prices will continue to drop,it's something I don't like but I can live with it. I have built a number of cars and do all the work myself to keep costs down, plus it's my hobby, keeps me sane. If I make money on a sale thats great, mostly I break even. My wife and I can take a vaction for $2-$3000 for a week and enjoy it but I prefer to put the same amount into my car each year , inssurance and gas and hotel rooms. We might be adying breed but when I go to a car show it's more enjoyable talking to people about what and why I built and drive my gas guzzling car. I prefer a whole summer of being around cars then 1 week in cuba. My cars aren't perfect but at 20 ft.they take a nice picture. I've lost more on my investments than I have on my hobby. When you farm out all the work on a car it adds up quick and no wonder some of these cars are over priced.In 20 yrs. most of us will be gone if you have a classic , drive em to get your moneys worth.
