Is there an engineer in the house?

Canadian Poncho · A Poncho Legend!

Is there an engineer in the house?

poncho62 · Poncho Master!

I am no engineer, so take this with a grain of salt....lol
I bet they were added as extra support when the addition was put on. From what I can see, a lot of that side wall was taken out. I can't see how big of a header is across the opening, but it doesn't look very big. How many posts were taken out?
I wouldn't take them out, but can't really see how they are doing much either. I think you need a more solid header in the opening.

seventy2plus2 · Canadian Poncho Superstar!

It's tough to tell in the photos, but it looks like the roofline of the main building continues over the addition.

Is that the case?

Canadian Poncho · A Poncho Legend!

Yes, it continues. Shot from the rear:

And those braces go well beyond the opening- all the way to the front of the building. As I mentioned that opening will be closed with new 2x6 studs to match the rest of that wall.

ak 67sd · Poncho Master!

I'd like to see a photo from the addition side as well. Also of the East and West end walls... are there openings on those walls?

The removal of the 2x6 studs for the opening to the addition wasn't done correctly (from what I can tell) a better beam and 2 ply cripple studs should be installed... but obviously it's holding up. * ignore this, I just read you are framing it in.

ak

Edited: looking at the photo through the opening to the addition is that the extra diagonal bracing is there to pick up the load of the addition roof trusses along these wall. Do you know what the foundation is? Concrete strip footing? Best to have someone local look at it, but they can likely be removed if the trusses on the addition are picked up along that shared wall in a suitable way. You may need another 2x6 wall there or doubling up the existing 2x6s and blocking - they are pretty tall. Is there cross bracing on the east and west walls?

-- Edited by ak 67sd on Saturday 24th of August 2019 09:03:17 PM

-- Edited by ak 67sd on Saturday 24th of August 2019 09:11:20 PM

seventy2plus2 · Canadian Poncho Superstar!

I agree with ak. The 2x6's are bracing the wall to handle the forces of the trusses of the addition.

Canadian Poncho · A Poncho Legend!

I don't know the details on the foundation. It looks like a slab to me. Here's a photo taken from the addition side but it doesn't show much as far as how the new building ties into the old.

DonSSDD · Canadian Poncho Superstar!

Whats the spacing and height of the 2x6 studs? Our code now is 2x6 studs on 16 inch centres and no taller than a 12 foot high wall for 2x6.

You can get a pretty good snow load and high winds so Id be careful to make this as strong as possible. What are you closing in the opening with? Id use 7/16 osb or local mill cheap T&G boards. How long and wide are the open spaces in your floor plan on that original structure?

ROSIES CAR · Addicted!

Hello Todd
I am in the construction industry and built and renovated many barns and industrial shops.
I have studied your pictures and from what I can see the braces if they are only in the opening are then they were added to bolster up the the bottom cord of the added trusses. Have a look in the areas that do not have bracing and look for evidence of nail holes marks left by old bracing, if non are found then go ahead and close off door opening and then remove bracing.
It also looks like the ceiling is not level in the new addition area. It looks as though they have lifted one side to match the existing roof. Does the original roof and addition roof plane out straight when standing and looking at it from the tails to the ridge? If so then the mono trusses they added had a different pitch and they lifted them up to match original roof or they did not want a step in roof. It is hard to tell from picture but it does look as though the supporting cord against wall is out of level, meaning the bottom is tight to wall and the top is a couple inches away. Curious why they did it that way maybe for looks or someone got pitch wrong or a deal on a set of trusses, either way it works.
I have also noticed that it looks as though there is a double maybe triple beam running the length of the building that the mono trusses sit on, which is good, as long as it is supported correctly. I have also noticed that it looks as though there is an additional concrete foundation wall against the side of original building, is this correct? If all is as it appears then you have yourself a well built building. Who ever built it did a great job, lots of cross bracing and additional support in trusses.
I would however as an insurance policy hire a structural engineer to assess the building, couple hundred bucks well spent. Hope this helps and remember I am not an engineer just a carpenter.

-- Edited by ROSIES CAR on Sunday 25th of August 2019 10:43:00 AM

Bill shuba · Guru

from what I can tell they are there as a support for the opened wall,but the header they are attached too isn't thick enough for them to do any good..imho I would remove the 2x6 beams and triple up the header..been in construction all my life..headers are always better than braces !!

Canadian Poncho · A Poncho Legend!

Don- The main building is 35X80 (2800 sq feet). The addition is 32x88 (2816 sq feet). The studs on the orig building are 12' tall, 16" apart.

The addition is pole construction- with 6x6 PT poles every 8 feet (2x6's in between):

Someone started covering this wall with OSB but on the inside. I'd like to remove the remains of the canvass and the opening/closing mechanism and cover with 7/16 OSB on the outside and cover the osb with TYVEK and eventually with steel:

The foundation was built up to a trough for watering cattle on the inside wall of the addition:

The 2x6 "supports" extend all the way to the front of the building- not just over the opening:

Here's some photos showing how the trusses from the addition join the trusses on the original building. Looks like the new trusses sit on two 2x10's that are sitting on top of posts

New trusses are on the right in the photo below:

Hear is a photo of the two 2x10 headers over the cut out

Same headers at the corner of the building sitting on post,

I hope these pics clarify things a bit.

Thanks for all your advice! The building seems to have held up well going through a Hurricane (Juan) and the most snowfall on record (2015) with 55 feet falling between Jan-April of that year. I want to make sure it stays that strong and wonder if removing those braces will compromise the strength of the structure.

ak 67sd · Poncho Master!

The way the older trusses were cut for the opening wasn't correct, but you're filling that in anyways. The diagonal bracing is likely not required, but you will likely need cripples under that 2 ply 2x10 that carries the new truss on the shared wall. One reason I was asking about the end walls was that in a building that large I would want to see cross-bracing or sheathing that resists wind loads etc. The reason the diagonals don't really make sense is that the load from the old and new truss are both carried by the shared wall. The diagonal transfers the force to the same wall. Being metal sheathed the diagonals may act to help with horizontal load vs vertical (think a house of cards being pushed over). One question your engineer is going to need to resolve is the load on the shared wall between old and new. I suspect they might want bridging/blocking in that 2x6 wall. All of this is offered on the assumption you'll validate these ideas with a local professional engineer.

Barns or storage buildings are not in my wheelhouse... I specialized in institution buildings...

ak

-- Edited by ak 67sd on Sunday 25th of August 2019 06:21:45 PM

Magician40 · Poncho Master!

There is a lot going on in this building. The original one used truss construction because you can use smaller size wood, a lighter roof frame and the install is quicker because they are made off site and transported raised and installed. But the addition used ceiling joists and conventional roof rafters so the two construction methods have to work because the uniformly distributed loads have to be equal. The addition of those 60 degree supports are there to help the load weight between the two different styles of roof construction. Before the addition the wall they are bearing down on was an outside wall, the use of metal siding would have helped strengthen that wall. Now this siding has been removed to open into the new addition so someone has added them to help with the lost support. Would I remove them, only if you could double up on the vertical posts.

Brian (Architect)

Canadian Poncho · A Poncho Legend!

Thanks AJ and Brian. Good advice there! Brian, when you say ""only if you could double up on the verticle posts" are you talking about adding more verticle 2x6's to the former outside wall of the original building?

Canadian Poncho · A Poncho Legend!

The original building does have diagonal bracing as seen in this photo:

And I have a few 2x6's left over up there. smile

Taylor55 · Poncho Master!

Todd you should use the 2X6 's that are left up in the ceiling to tie the trusses together from the front of the building to the back of the building. You will create a small walkway and stop any movement of the trusses back and forth. I just helped my brother build a 28X32 pre fab engineered garage at his cottage that this was called for. If you sheet the ceiling you can remove the diagonal braces and have a surface to hold the insulation if you intend on heating a portion of the building later on.

It sure looks like a well constructed out building. Congrats on the purchase.

Al

Yams · Veteran Member

Hey there Todd,
I own and operate my own renovation/construction business and you have a few things that can be done to ensure that all is well.
Going from your pictures, the bracing from the trusses to the walls was to help with the addition. Where the bottom of the 1/2 trusses (addition) meet the wall on the main building is where they may have had an issue with deflection (twisting, bending, etc) because those are meant to sit on a horizontal plane and not at an angle. They used a set of trusses that was not originally made for the same pitch. Because they're sitting at an angle, the bottom corner that meets the main building wants to push on it and adds the strain (deflection), and this caused them to add the angle braces for peace of mind.

The cross bracing on the ceiling is for keeping the building square and ridgid. You can remove these and put strapping on the ceiling if you want to drywall it or put up plywood. You'd have to use 2x4's or larger to strap because of the truss spacing (over 2' centre).
I'd just frame up a new 2x6 wall sistered to the main wall(which is the centre wall at this point) under the addition trusses. This would eliminate any concern for unwanted pressure on the wall, take away any concern for failure from snow load, and it would take away any concern over the angle of the trusses. They would be fully supported, and you could use the concrete wall that was poured for the trough as your base.
As for the outside wall supporting the angled trusses, it looks as though the 2x8/2x10 are fastened to the side of the 6x6 posts, with scrap lumber attached to the 6x6 under those for support. This should be a 3-4 ply beam sitting directly on top of the 6x6 posts for full support from top to bottom. If you do this and add a beam, just remember that there can be no seams overhanging any posts, they have to be seamed in the middle of the posts.
Also, where they hacked out the openings in the main wall, add headers and supports and it will be all good.
Hope this helps and doesn't confuse you.
Jamie

Canadian Poncho · A Poncho Legend!

Thanks Al. I would like to sheet the ceiling at some point.

Taylor55 wrote:
Todd you should use the 2X6 's that are left up in the ceiling to tie the trusses together from the front of the building to the back of the building. You will create a small walkway and stop any movement of the trusses back and forth. I just helped my brother build a 28X32 pre fab engineered garage at his cottage that this was called for. If you sheet the ceiling you can remove the diagonal braces and have a surface to hold the insulation if you intend on heating a portion of the building later on.

It sure looks like a well constructed out building. Congrats on the purchase.

Al

Canadian Poncho · A Poncho Legend!

Great idea about framing up a new 2x6 wall sistered to the main wall Jamie. That sounds like the way to go. I appreciate your (and everyone else's) insights. I feel better knowing that this building for the most part was built correctly.

Hey there Todd,
I own and operate my own renovation/construction business and you have a few things that can be done to ensure that all is well.
Going from your pictures, the bracing from the trusses to the walls was to help with the addition. Where the bottom of the 1/2 trusses (addition) meet the wall on the main building is where they may have had an issue with deflection (twisting, bending, etc) because those are meant to sit on a horizontal plane and not at an angle. They used a set of trusses that was not originally made for the same pitch. Because they're sitting at an angle, the bottom corner that meets the main building wants to push on it and adds the strain (deflection), and this caused them to add the angle braces for peace of mind.

The cross bracing on the ceiling is for keeping the building square and ridgid. You can remove these and put strapping on the ceiling if you want to drywall it or put up plywood. You'd have to use 2x4's or larger to strap because of the truss spacing (over 2' centre).
I'd just frame up a new 2x6 wall sistered to the main wall(which is the centre wall at this point) under the addition trusses. This would eliminate any concern for unwanted pressure on the wall, take away any concern for failure from snow load, and it would take away any concern over the angle of the trusses. They would be fully supported, and you could use the concrete wall that was poured for the trough as your base.
As for the outside wall supporting the angled trusses, it looks as though the 2x8/2x10 are fastened to the side of the 6x6 posts, with scrap lumber attached to the 6x6 under those for support. This should be a 3-4 ply beam sitting directly on top of the 6x6 posts for full support from top to bottom. If you do this and add a beam, just remember that there can be no seams overhanging any posts, they have to be seamed in the middle of the posts.
Also, where they hacked out the openings in the main wall, add headers and supports and it will be all good.
Hope this helps and doesn't confuse you.
Jamie