Photobucket
Members Login
Post Info TOPIC: Fram oil filters, just about the worst on the planet.


A Poncho Legend!

Status: Offline
Posts: 22450
Date:
RE: Fram oil filters, just about the worst on the planet.


Here's an interesting video showing an engine's cylinder condition (in this case a late model Ram HEMI) and oil analysis after 8000 miles of hard driving.



__________________

Todd
Site Founder

Like us on Facebook. http://www.facebook.com/CanadianPoncho

Canadian Poncho World Headquarters - Prince Edward Island

 

MC


Canadian Poncho Superstar!

Status: Offline
Posts: 5488
Date:

Good stuff, Carl.  

So you do know a case of engine failure that was proven to be caused by a Fram filter.  Do you remember the result of the analysis?  Did the filter collapse and block off oil flow to the engine?  Just curious as to how the filter caused the engine to fail.

Just to restate my point, the other filters look better than the Fram, there's no arguing that point.  But, just like 2000 km oil changes, what minimum is acceptable?  The OEMs changed their specification for oil changes quite a bit over the years, and require oil changes much less frequently than the average enthusiast likes to change their oil.  It's obvious that if you changed your oil every week rather than every year, that there would be some benefit to your engine having a continual supply of fresh oil in it.  But... how much benefit?  Does that mean the average car owner will have an engine failure before the rest of their car is worn out and it's sent off to the scrap yard?  Change your oil every week and you can probably get 1 million kms out of it, but if the average car probably doesn't see any more than 200,000 or 300,000 kms of driving before they scrap their cars is it money well spent?.

Similarly, while it's obvious by looking that the Fram appears to be of lower quality than the others, but the question is are they really inadequate?  What is their filtering performance compared to the others?  i.e. how much particulate is removed by Fram vs the others?  What is the flow rate? i.e. how much does the oil filter restrict the flow of oil to the engine?  What is the decrease in performance as it gets plugged up with particulate?  Does it flow less than the others or more?  

What is the typical failure mode that causes engine failure, and what is the frequency of it?  Do the other brands have similar failure rates?  The part of research that has the most likelyhood of falling apart is focusing on a conclusion that we think is right, and then tailoring our research to prove our point.  Good research is designed to treat all cases similarly with an open end to a conclusion.  In this case, rather than looking for Fram failures we should be looking at all failures and then let the evidence lead us to a conclusion.

I'm not saying that your info is bad, in fact it's quite interesting to see the difference in filters, and I agree that I want to go with the best filter, even if it's overkill.  Over-engineered is good if you don't mind paying for it, which I don't mind.  But, I would still like to see some conclusive evidence for my own peace of mind.  And, it doesn't seem to be out there - if it is, I'd love to see it.

Just to be clear, I'm not arguing with anybody, thanks for all the efforts to show us the differences in filters.  It's interesting that so many manufacturers make filters so differently - one would almost think that an optimal design would have been arrived at and followed by all by this point in time, after all, IC engines have been in use for well over a century...

And, on the other side of the equation, we all agree that Fram appears to be the worst, which is the best?  Maybe we should draw a conclusion as to which filter is the best one to use to protect our engines and we should all start using those?



__________________


A Poncho Legend!

Status: Offline
Posts: 40674
Date:

So far it appears the best made filters would be made by Wix or AC (and we don't even know for sure who makes AC). I'm hoping to scrounge up more examples as time progresses. I just have to remember to keep walking by the scrap filter barrel in the shop from time to time! Oh and for the record, NAPA filters are also made by Wix. I haven't been able to come up with a NAPA sample yet though.



__________________

1966 Strato Chief 2 door, 427 4 speed, 44,000 original miles



Canadian Poncho Superstar!

Status: Offline
Posts: 6228
Date:

I have been following this thread and it raises a lot of questions in my mind.

Let me put my engineering hat on and ask what I think is a relevent question.
Are these filters all for the same application?
Doesn't it make sense that a filter for a 1.5 liter ABC would be different than that for a 350 ( 5.7l ) in an XYZ?
If not why are there literally hundreds of variations of sizes, and presumably constructions, on the shelf at your local parts store?

Your study has been interesting to follow but not very scientific in comparing apples to apples.

__________________


Canadian Poncho Superstar!

Status: Offline
Posts: 5095
Date:

4SPEED427 wrote:
long stroke wrote:

Thank you Dr. Carl of Oil Filterology. Your work in the field of Oil Filterology is very much appreciated. 


 Would you be willing to save one of those old white filters you got from me after your next oil change and cut it open? I'd love to see inside one of them and they are pretty well non existent now. I've often heard that was one of the best oil filters ever made.


 I have made a note to myself and put it on my calendar to remember to do this. Cheers.



__________________

1957 Pontiac Pathfinder Deluxe sedan restored 261 six

1974 Chevrolet Caprice Estate wagon low mileage original 400 V-8



A Poncho Legend!

Status: Offline
Posts: 40674
Date:

norontcan wrote:

I have been following this thread and it raises a lot of questions in my mind.

Let me put my engineering hat on and ask what I think is a relevent question.
Are these filters all for the same application?
Doesn't it make sense that a filter for a 1.5 liter ABC would be different than that for a 350 ( 5.7l ) in an XYZ?
If not why are there literally hundreds of variations of sizes, and presumably constructions, on the shelf at your local parts store?

Your study has been interesting to follow but not very scientific in comparing apples to apples.


 I know, I've wondered about this as well. I believe the 3 smallest are all the same application, the Parts Master is unique to the ones I cut (it's from a Ford) and the 3 large ones should be the same application. But that's a valid point.

I'm going to keep hacking away at these as I find them in the barrel though!



__________________

1966 Strato Chief 2 door, 427 4 speed, 44,000 original miles



Canadian Poncho Superstar!

Status: Offline
Posts: 5095
Date:

4SPEED427 wrote:
norontcan wrote:

I have been following this thread and it raises a lot of questions in my mind.

Let me put my engineering hat on and ask what I think is a relevent question.
Are these filters all for the same application?
Doesn't it make sense that a filter for a 1.5 liter ABC would be different than that for a 350 ( 5.7l ) in an XYZ?
If not why are there literally hundreds of variations of sizes, and presumably constructions, on the shelf at your local parts store?

Your study has been interesting to follow but not very scientific in comparing apples to apples.


 I know, I've wondered about this as well. I believe the 3 smallest are all the same application, the Parts Master is unique to the ones I cut (it's from a Ford) and the 3 large ones should be the same application. But that's a valid point.

I'm going to keep hacking away at these as I find them in the barrel though!


 Dr. Carl, any further studies into the science of Oil Filterology would be very scientifically appreciated. Some of your colleagues might want to compare scientific results with you. Have you heard any further word from the Winnipeg University of Oil Filterolgy about further grants for you study. I for one will be rooting for you. Cheers.



__________________

1957 Pontiac Pathfinder Deluxe sedan restored 261 six

1974 Chevrolet Caprice Estate wagon low mileage original 400 V-8



A Poncho Legend!

Status: Offline
Posts: 40674
Date:

Sorry there's been no new brands of oil filters show up in the used oil filter barrel at work. No  new volunteers willing to sacrifice their bodies for science!



__________________

1966 Strato Chief 2 door, 427 4 speed, 44,000 original miles



Poncho Master!

Status: Offline
Posts: 2051
Date:

1964Canso wrote:

Bought an ac delco at lordco yesterday, black canister,opened the box at home,"made in china",Usually buy Napa gold,but closed on sundays here now! The delco can goes back to lordco....


 Picked up two blue AC Delco for our 2010 Equinox for $12.81 inc tax at the local GM dealer and it still says Product of the USA.....biggrin



__________________

......big block, 4 speed, bench seat, it doesn't get much better

 happy motoring :burnout



Uber Guru

Status: Offline
Posts: 3539
Date:

bjburnout wrote:
1964Canso wrote:

Bought an ac delco at lordco yesterday, black canister,opened the box at home,"made in china",Usually buy Napa gold,but closed on sundays here now! The delco can goes back to lordco....


 Picked up two blue AC Delco for our 2010 Equinox for $12.81 inc tax at the local GM dealer and it still says Product of the USA.....biggrin


 blue AC DELCO filters are made by Champion Labs...USA made

black AC DELCO filters are china made



__________________

 








Canadian Poncho Superstar!

Status: Offline
Posts: 5095
Date:

bjburnout wrote:
1964Canso wrote:

Bought an ac delco at lordco yesterday, black canister,opened the box at home,"made in china",Usually buy Napa gold,but closed on sundays here now! The delco can goes back to lordco....


 Picked up two blue AC Delco for our 2010 Equinox for $12.81 inc tax at the local GM dealer and it still says Product of the USA.....biggrin


 Yes, there may be some hope after all. Bernie, please do not forget to dissect one of those blue AC oil filters for the inquisitive C.P. brethren here. There is a collective cause here on C.P. to expose all bad oil filters and exalt all good oil filters. Cheers. biggrin



__________________

1957 Pontiac Pathfinder Deluxe sedan restored 261 six

1974 Chevrolet Caprice Estate wagon low mileage original 400 V-8



Poncho Master!

Status: Offline
Posts: 2051
Date:

2drpost wrote:
bjburnout wrote:
1964Canso wrote:

Bought an ac delco at lordco yesterday, black canister,opened the box at home,"made in china",Usually buy Napa gold,but closed on sundays here now! The delco can goes back to lordco....


 Picked up two blue AC Delco for our 2010 Equinox for $12.81 inc tax at the local GM dealer and it still says Product of the USA.....biggrin


 blue AC DELCO filters are made by Champion Labs...USA made

black AC DELCO filters are china made


 Have bought blue AC Delco filters for our Dodge Magnum and Ford F150 (now gone). Last summer bought a AC Delco battery

for the Magnum at the GM Dealer and it was about $100. cheaper than a Mopar battery.



__________________

......big block, 4 speed, bench seat, it doesn't get much better

 happy motoring :burnout



A Poncho Legend!

Status: Offline
Posts: 40674
Date:

If you want to see what the blue AC filters look like just look at the top of this threat. I cut a couple of them open.



__________________

1966 Strato Chief 2 door, 427 4 speed, 44,000 original miles



Canadian Poncho Superstar!

Status: Offline
Posts: 6799
Date:

4SPEED427 wrote:

. No  new volunteers willing to sacrifice their bodies for science!


 oh cmon not even the wife?



__________________

http://canadianponcho.activeboard.com/t51640378/timbuks-first-invader/ http://canadianponcho.activeboard.com/t63146560/timbuks-second-invader/  vancouver island

MC


Canadian Poncho Superstar!

Status: Offline
Posts: 5488
Date:

norontcan wrote:

I have been following this thread and it raises a lot of questions in my mind.

Let me put my engineering hat on and ask what I think is a relevent question.
Are these filters all for the same application?
Doesn't it make sense that a filter for a 1.5 liter ABC would be different than that for a 350 ( 5.7l ) in an XYZ?
If not why are there literally hundreds of variations of sizes, and presumably constructions, on the shelf at your local parts store?

Your study has been interesting to follow but not very scientific in comparing apples to apples.


I have to agree.  Filtration and flow characteristics are not really determined by visual checks.  To actually judge, a bench test would have to be configured and a test method would have to be created.  Then there would have to be some method of determining the level of particulate escaping the filter and the flow rate attainable under a fixed oil pressure.

But, it's fun to see the filters cut open, and it's fun to bash Fram, so I'm going with the flow, so to speak.  Engineering and proper scientific procedure is not so fun, so we needn't worry about it for this, IMHO.  It's all about fun.



__________________


A Poncho Legend!

Status: Offline
Posts: 40674
Date:

Agree 100%, I am not claiming any results on flow and filtration. This is strictly showing that there is a much greater possibility of certain filters to collapse inside their can (which they do, I have seen photographic evidence) which renders them useless.

__________________

1966 Strato Chief 2 door, 427 4 speed, 44,000 original miles



Poncho Master!

Status: Offline
Posts: 2051
Date:

long stroke wrote:
bjburnout wrote:
1964Canso wrote:

Bought an ac delco at lordco yesterday, black canister,opened the box at home,"made in china",Usually buy Napa gold,but closed on sundays here now! The delco can goes back to lordco....


 Picked up two blue AC Delco for our 2010 Equinox for $12.81 inc tax at the local GM dealer and it still says Product of the USA.....biggrin


 Yes, there may be some hope after all. Bernie, please do not forget to dissect one of those blue AC oil filters for the inquisitive C.P. brethren here. There is a collective cause here on C.P. to expose all bad oil filters and exalt all good oil filters. Cheers. biggrin


 George I am bowing to the 'chef du oil filters' Carl. Wouldn't want to ruin his rep and besides - what a mess when you cut one these open.....YUCH!!!



__________________

......big block, 4 speed, bench seat, it doesn't get much better

 happy motoring :burnout

MC


Canadian Poncho Superstar!

Status: Offline
Posts: 5488
Date:

4SPEED427 wrote:

Agree 100%, I am not claiming any results on flow and filtration. This is strictly showing that there is a much greater possibility of certain filters to collapse inside their can (which they do, I have seen photographic evidence) which renders them useless.


 Right!  

It's fun to see them cut apart.  Have you found any indications of failure in the ones you've cut open?  I'm wondering what the failure mode is - what indications are there that certain filters are more susceptible to collapse than others?  Is it the filter media, or...?



__________________


A Poncho Legend!

Status: Offline
Posts: 40674
Date:

It's the ones that have those flimsy paper end caps that collapse, at least the ones I've seen. Every collapsed one I've ever seen presented has those crappy ends.

These ones here I've cut open so far haven't shown any collapsing. In the past the cheaper ones in some cases have the pleats very sporadically spaced, sometimes so tight together that you can hardly imagine them being effective and then 1/2 way around the same filter there's huge spaces between the pleats.

Also, some of the cheap filters (but not all) have a nice steel crimp running vertically on the connecting seam in the pleats. I'm assuming that is done to deter collapsing.

__________________

1966 Strato Chief 2 door, 427 4 speed, 44,000 original miles

MC


Canadian Poncho Superstar!

Status: Offline
Posts: 5488
Date:

Excellent information.  Thanks!  smile



__________________


Veteran Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 62
Date:

It amazes me when I see high-end restored cars or big dollar restomods with $10,000 engines with a $2 Fram oil filter. And I usually hear the same thing, I never had a problem, which truly amazes me. Why would you build up something so expensive, and then put a $2 oil filter on? An interestingly, if you go to RockAuto, the synthetic media Fram filters are more expensive than the fancy Wix and the like. I bought some Mobil1s for a Japanese car, and maybe my Mercedes, and they're made in China. And Mann filters for my Mercedes are also made in Mexico.

__________________

1967 Parisienne 2+2 283 3-2's TH350 3.36 12 bolt Posi tilt wood wheel AM-FM reverb. 50k miles long gone but not forgotten, and I'm sure it's living a charmed restored life somewhere

MC


Canadian Poncho Superstar!

Status: Offline
Posts: 5488
Date:

I switched from Fram to Mobil 1 because the internet told me that Fram was bad and Mobil 1 was good. Ill have to check the Mobil 1 box when I get back to work next week to see where they were made. The internet also tells me that Wix is good too, so maybe Ill have to see who sells them locally and switch to them if they are not made in China.. I have not blown up any engines yet... so I guess Ive been lucky so far... Merry Christmas!.

__________________
«First  <  1 2 3 4 | Page of 4  sorted by
 
Quick Reply

Please log in to post quick replies.

Tweet this page Post to Digg Post to Del.icio.us
.
Support Canadian Poncho!
Select Amount:
.
.
.