Environmentalists demand that Michael Moore’s anti-EV film be retracted - Eye Opener film - Worth Watching

Greaser · Canadian Poncho Superstar!

Environmentalists demand that Michael Moore’s anti-EV film be retracted - Eye Opener film - Worth Watching

Greaser · Canadian Poncho Superstar!

Just finished watching this film -

Powerful, and a story about climate change and

climate change organizations that no one has told.

Highly recommend watching.

-G

cdnpont · Canadian Poncho Superstar!

I've always wondered just how we're going to charge all the electric cars when it goes that way.

Canadian Poncho · A Poncho Legend!

That won't be a problem. A heat pump sucks more power. We watched this video the other night. Really disappointing to see how the billionaires have exploited the green initiatives. The biomass plants are the worst.

HK1837 · Addicted!

I'm an Electrical Engineer, and been heavily involved with Electrical power. I've found you cannot argue with a Greenie, no matter how logical you are.

You tell them that if they get their way and say 1 million useable internal combustion engined vehicles come off the road overnight and are replaced with EV's:

1. There is a massive carbon cost to start with to build those EV's and also to scrap the existing vehicles.
2. The Australian City in question will not have the transmission and distribution grids to charge every one of those EV's at night when all the owners come home.
3. We'd have to build another 3-4 big generation plants that are either coal or (horror!) nuclear power to provide the power to charge all those EV's PLUS the transmission, transformation and distribution losses to get the power to their homes. Oops, sun don't shine at night, and damn, there is no wind, better kick start the reactor!
4. Most of the homes wouldn't have the capacity to power a 240V, 20A charger when their aircon and ovens and hot water are on, so they'd need an upgrade.
5. They think that they will have access to "off-peak" cheaper power to charge the EV at night. Guess what? The new "peak" period will be at night so it won't be economical. Typically off-peak in Australia is about 10-13c/kWh. Peak is typically 45-55c/kWh.
6. No more weekend trips to the favourite holiday spots. Australia is massive, people typically dive 200kM to a favourite spot. Now there will be no more of that, no queuing in holiday traffic for hours in 38degC heat with the aircon on or the EV will go flat. Turn up at a 30min fast charge station. Oops, there is 50 people in line in front of you. Oh well, that 6pm dinner at the destination becomes 12 midnight! Oh well, we better have a petrol car as a second car for holidays! More carbon....Should have kept the old one.

One day we'll have the technology that makes sense for renewable energy vehicles, but I reckon it might be hydrogen hybrid or similar, not full EV.

cdnpont · Canadian Poncho Superstar!

We have the same issue in Ontario during the summer. On most summer days and nights over 30c, all the biggest industry players (hydro consumers) are actually paid to stand down the parts of the plant that consume the most.

So the grid it is already in a compromised situation in the summer. Add the EV's to the mix now. To me, the solution has to be hybrid of some design.

Cheviac · Guru

I'll buy an EV when they're totally self charging and don't need to be plugged in.

Ponchoheart · Addicted!

Todd , I dont want to go on a rant here, but Billionaires didnt do it , I would say that the Environmentalist /Greenies did it to themselves. Like Byron said, you cant tell them anything. They know it all. Its a religion now. This documentary just exposes the hypocrisy of the fairytale.. Unless we are all willing to dial our lifestyle back to the pre industrial era, ....and IMO that aint gonna happen. We all love our creature comforts , heat in the winter, AC in the summer, holidays in different places, food from everywhere, ....
Excellent documentary, best of the year is my guess

Canadian Poncho · A Poncho Legend!

And if you believe the documentary if we keep doing what we are doing we are dead.

Mike Ward MB · Addicted!

Cheviac wrote:
I'll buy an EV when they're totally self charging and don't need to be plugged in.

That would be a vehicle propelled by a perpetual motion machine. A perpetual motion machine is a hypothetical machine that can do work indefinitely without an energy source. This kind of machine is impossible, as it would violate the first or second law of thermodynamics.

Cheviac · Guru

Looks like no electric car in my future, lol.

HK1837 · Addicted!

Once we have the next generation of battery like a carbon battery, that is reliable and relatively cheap a hybrid will work OK. Initially a small petrol or diesel in front of the electrical machine but eventually something like a hydrogen IC engine would work as you can not only charge the batteries onboard via regeneration but also use cheap electricity to create the hydrogen fuel from water (which is the exhaust of the hydrogen IC engine). This of course relies upon cheap electricity, which will be available from sunlight, so you could use the solar energy off your house roof to create hydrogen from water, exhaust the oxygen and store the hydrogen. Then at night empty that hydrogen into your car, and drain the water that it has created from running to go and be turned into hydrogen again. People think Hydrogen is bad (remember the Hindenburg) but it isn't really any worse than LPG or CNG. You'd be able to buy hydrogen as well for long trips, but for the daily commute you could do it yourself at home.

MC · Canadian Poncho Superstar!

But if there's lots of cheap electricity available, why introduce the extra step of using the electricity to isolate hydrogen, and then burn it in an IC engine that will also be used to charge batteries.

The reasons I ask are:

1) There will be energy wasted in the hydrogen production, and further thermodynamic losses in the operation of the IC engine.

2) There will be expense involved in purchasing and maintaining the apparatus used to create the hydrogen.

3) You will have to safely store the hydrogen produced somehow, and then go to the trouble of fueling your vehicle with it.

4) IC engines require way more complexity, and thus expense, than an electric motor. Why not just eliminate the middle man and charge your next-gen batteries (after the tech breakthrough) directly from your cheap electricity source?

I'm not a huge proponent of electric vehicles, but there seems to be a lot of momentum within the industry to bring them out. But the questions I raised are not even based on what the industry is doing, just practical thought.

Another factor that's not discussed so much - political will. Before coronavirus, the environment (and it's popular sidekick, climate change) was a major focus politically around the world. Therefore, I think if the move is towards electric vehicles, there will be a lot of political pressure to upgrade the electrical grid to accommodate them. It's not an insurmountable task, but it will be an expensive one (and arguably one that should be done anyway, as the blackouts that occurred a number of years ago were a good indication of what could become commonplace should demand continue to increase with no infrastructure investment to keep up with the demand). So yes, the grid as we know it may not be able to handle the demand of all vehicles being switched to electric, but it will take years for that to happen, and years for the government to react to it after regular blackouts cause it to become a political hotspot.

Greaser, thanks for posting the video - I'll watch it when I have an hour and 40 minutes to spare - been a little busy lately, but it sounds like it will be interesting.

HK1837 · Addicted!

The reason I suggest generating hydrogen straight from solar is that the car doesn't need to be there, whereas if you charge the car straight from solar it has to be there and be connected to charge its batteries. BUT, most people drive the car to work and park it at home at night, so the hydrogen production is basically energy storage collected during the day and you use it for fuel in your car. PLUS, I reckon hybrid is the go not EV. With a hybrid you don't charge the batteries whilst the vehicle is static, you charge them whilst it is in motion. And you need an IC engine. So to run the IC engine in the hybrid you use the stored hydrogen you created by using solar energy.

This way you have a hybrid you can use for as long as you like away from home, but the catch is you need to be able to refuel with hydrogen if you aren't going home. No different to refuelling with petrol or LPG or diesel, but you need the infrastructure to do it. However for the normal day to day drive you could generate the required hydrogen at home, and have it sized so you have sufficient capacity in the storage to see you through cloudy days. Sure you could use solar to charge batteries, and then use those batteries to charge your EV, but you are still going to need either grid or generator backup to cover a run of cloudy days and it isn't exactly efficient to charge batteries from batteries. Plus if you had sufficient hydrogen storage you could in theory run heating, cooling and even generation off it to backup your house based battery storage if you had it as well.

You are right about the increased capacity of the power network to charge all these EV's, but in order to transmit and distribute all that power, you have to generate it first. And the only way to do that right now in the scale required is fossil fuel or nuclear. Hydro may be OK for short term peaks but you still need fossil or nuclear power to pump the water back up the hill again to use it for the next peak.

DonSSDD · Canadian Poncho Superstar!

I find like most things these days, there are 2 sides to every story. Both sides overhype their benefits and totally attack the oppositions position. Being a cynic, its hard to believe either side in these arguments and hard to find the truth which is most often somewhere in the middle. I like actual science and scientific arguments.

Debates over pipelines, fish farming, global warming, you name it, just a lot of exaggerated positions?

The biggest waste of energy related to vehicles is having a 4 door pickup/suv as a daily commuter when you dont need a truck. And driving 30-50,000 kms alone annually with an empty box and just the driver. But thats what has evolved as the vehicle of choice.

The world shutdown due to Covid 19 is providing clean air in many cities around the world, parts of India can see the Himalayas now. I think this blip on the pollution scale in the world may provide scientists with some real data that will assist in updating projections with some new data?

Covid 19 may eliminate a lot of the population growth the world has had, well see what it does in Africa, India, South America where it is impossible to practice social distancing and the healthcare systems will never keep up. It is extremely contagious and deadly. New York State has over 22,000 dead, with social distancing, how many will die in a slum in Rio de Janeiro or New Delhi etc?

I believe well have a reliance on fossil fuels for at least another 25 years, even if hybrid hydrogen or EV starts soon. With self driving cars, Uber etc will spec our a box of some sort to efficiently haul us around and we will not have to bother having our own vehicles. There will be no driver, a chip in your brain will be scanned for all your needs, and the billing for whatever you need. Robots will do everything we need done and with no need for physical activity, well all look like jabba the hut?

-- Edited by DonSSDD on Monday 27th of April 2020 03:39:04 AM

Canadian Poncho · A Poncho Legend!

Something that was misleading in the Micheal Moore video was the fact they only briefly mentioned some of the early segments on solar power were from 2009 - the one where the guy said the panels only lasted 10 years (They last 25-30 years now) and how that solar array could only power 5 houses. Those early panels didn't put out much power. Now you can get 150 watt panels and 415 watt panels have just been released. I'm sure many thought those scenes were filmed recently.

DonSSDD · Canadian Poncho Superstar!

If you look at online discussions on this movie, compare the discussions of this movie to his movies on Columbine and gun control. Everyone has switched sides.

MC · Canadian Poncho Superstar!

HK1837 wrote:
The reason I suggest generating hydrogen straight from solar is that the car doesn't need to be there, whereas if you charge the car straight from solar it has to be there and be connected to charge its batteries. BUT, most people drive the car to work and park it at home at night, so the hydrogen production is basically energy storage collected during the day and you use it for fuel in your car. PLUS, I reckon hybrid is the go not EV. With a hybrid you don't charge the batteries whilst the vehicle is static, you charge them whilst it is in motion. And you need an IC engine. So to run the IC engine in the hybrid you use the stored hydrogen you created by using solar energy.

This way you have a hybrid you can use for as long as you like away from home, but the catch is you need to be able to refuel with hydrogen if you aren't going home. No different to refuelling with petrol or LPG or diesel, but you need the infrastructure to do it. However for the normal day to day drive you could generate the required hydrogen at home, and have it sized so you have sufficient capacity in the storage to see you through cloudy days. Sure you could use solar to charge batteries, and then use those batteries to charge your EV, but you are still going to need either grid or generator backup to cover a run of cloudy days and it isn't exactly efficient to charge batteries from batteries. Plus if you had sufficient hydrogen storage you could in theory run heating, cooling and even generation off it to backup your house based battery storage if you had it as well.

You are right about the increased capacity of the power network to charge all these EV's, but in order to transmit and distribute all that power, you have to generate it first. And the only way to do that right now in the scale required is fossil fuel or nuclear. Hydro may be OK for short term peaks but you still need fossil or nuclear power to pump the water back up the hill again to use it for the next peak.

Good points. Thanks for the response.

My discussion points were based on an assumption of an increase in technology. For example, I've read about possible new battery technologies that will allow very quick charging, which would reduce the gap between charge time vs refuel time. Additionally, one would expect improvements in other technologies such as the improvement in solar panels as Todd has pointed out.

The big advantage of electric vs hybrid, as I mentioned, is the level of complexity. If you're talking manufacturing, building a vehicle with both powerplants will be more expensive and have a larger carbon footprint than just one form of powerplant. This cost will be reflected to the consumer - and we all know that cost is the largest driver of any market.

Additionally, an IC engine requires many more systems than an electric motor. They both require some sort of cooling system, so that's moot, but IC requires a fuel system, exhaust system, has many more mechanical parts requiring an oiling system, etc. Thus IC requires a bunch of maintenance that electric doesn't. How that will all play out is yet to be seen, but at this time the advantage seems to be pointing towards electric. Battery life will still be an issue with both.

I can't argue your points about electric generation, as that's not a field of expertise for me, and it is for you. I would hope, however, that there will be technological improvements in that field as well, though I heard in the news yesterday that the covid situation has prompted China to build more coal plants to catch up in their economy... so will electric vehicles just be coal powered vehicles? In which case we may as well start looking at steam as the new technology... you can burn anything to power those... lol.

MC · Canadian Poncho Superstar!

DonSSDD wrote:
I find like most things these days, there are 2 sides to every story. Both sides overhype their benefits and totally attack the oppositions position. Being a cynic, its hard to believe either side in these arguments and hard to find the truth which is most often somewhere in the middle. I like actual science and scientific arguments.

Debates over pipelines, fish farming, global warming, you name it, just a lot of exaggerated positions?

The biggest waste of energy related to vehicles is having a 4 door pickup/suv as a daily commuter when you dont need a truck. And driving 30-50,000 kms alone annually with an empty box and just the driver. But thats what has evolved as the vehicle of choice.

The world shutdown due to Covid 19 is providing clean air in many cities around the world, parts of India can see the Himalayas now. I think this blip on the pollution scale in the world may provide scientists with some real data that will assist in updating projections with some new data?

Covid 19 may eliminate a lot of the population growth the world has had, well see what it does in Africa, India, South America where it is impossible to practice social distancing and the healthcare systems will never keep up. It is extremely contagious and deadly. New York State has over 22,000 dead, with social distancing, how many will die in a slum in Rio de Janeiro or New Delhi etc?

I believe well have a reliance on fossil fuels for at least another 25 years, even if hybrid hydrogen or EV starts soon. With self driving cars, Uber etc will spec our a box of some sort to efficiently haul us around and we will not have to bother having our own vehicles. There will be no driver, a chip in your brain will be scanned for all your needs, and the billing for whatever you need. Robots will do everything we need done and with no need for physical activity, well all look like jabba the hut?

-- Edited by DonSSDD on Monday 27th of April 2020 03:39:04 AM

Very good points, Don. The "X" factor in all of this is the market/customer. Obviously large 4-door pickups aren't the best vehicles for efficiency and the environment, but they appeal to many (most) customers. Whether electric catches on will more rely on what people want to spend their money on than any of the other points discussed here.

As far as covid goes, I think the world will be different when the dust settles, but I can't even guess what that will be exactly. One effect it may have is that it could shift the movement towards mass transit, or shared vehicles (the autonomous shared vehicle scenario you presented) back towards personally owned vehicles again. In a pandemic situation such as the one we are experiencing now, people with personal vehicles are at a big advantage in that it is possible to commute to anywhere you need to go in relative safety. Can you imagine the anxiety created by shared vehicles? You'd be asking yourself if any of the potentially tens or hundreds of people who were in this car today had covid, and what did they touch... perhaps personal hazmat suits will become the fashion...

HK1837 · Addicted!

MC wrote:
HK1837 wrote:
The reason I suggest generating hydrogen straight from solar is that the car doesn't need to be there, whereas if you charge the car straight from solar it has to be there and be connected to charge its batteries. BUT, most people drive the car to work and park it at home at night, so the hydrogen production is basically energy storage collected during the day and you use it for fuel in your car. PLUS, I reckon hybrid is the go not EV. With a hybrid you don't charge the batteries whilst the vehicle is static, you charge them whilst it is in motion. And you need an IC engine. So to run the IC engine in the hybrid you use the stored hydrogen you created by using solar energy.

This way you have a hybrid you can use for as long as you like away from home, but the catch is you need to be able to refuel with hydrogen if you aren't going home. No different to refuelling with petrol or LPG or diesel, but you need the infrastructure to do it. However for the normal day to day drive you could generate the required hydrogen at home, and have it sized so you have sufficient capacity in the storage to see you through cloudy days. Sure you could use solar to charge batteries, and then use those batteries to charge your EV, but you are still going to need either grid or generator backup to cover a run of cloudy days and it isn't exactly efficient to charge batteries from batteries. Plus if you had sufficient hydrogen storage you could in theory run heating, cooling and even generation off it to backup your house based battery storage if you had it as well.

You are right about the increased capacity of the power network to charge all these EV's, but in order to transmit and distribute all that power, you have to generate it first. And the only way to do that right now in the scale required is fossil fuel or nuclear. Hydro may be OK for short term peaks but you still need fossil or nuclear power to pump the water back up the hill again to use it for the next peak.
Good points. Thanks for the response.
My discussion points were based on an assumption of an increase in technology. For example, I've read about possible new battery technologies that will allow very quick charging, which would reduce the gap between charge time vs refuel time. Additionally, one would expect improvements in other technologies such as the improvement in solar panels as Todd has pointed out.
The big advantage of electric vs hybrid, as I mentioned, is the level of complexity. If you're talking manufacturing, building a vehicle with both powerplants will be more expensive and have a larger carbon footprint than just one form of powerplant. This cost will be reflected to the consumer - and we all know that cost is the largest driver of any market.
Additionally, an IC engine requires many more systems than an electric motor. They both require some sort of cooling system, so that's moot, but IC requires a fuel system, exhaust system, has many more mechanical parts requiring an oiling system, etc. Thus IC requires a bunch of maintenance that electric doesn't. How that will all play out is yet to be seen, but at this time the advantage seems to be pointing towards electric. Battery life will still be an issue with both.
I can't argue your points about electric generation, as that's not a field of expertise for me, and it is for you. I would hope, however, that there will be technological improvements in that field as well, though I heard in the news yesterday that the covid situation has prompted China to build more coal plants to catch up in their economy... so will electric vehicles just be coal powered vehicles? In which case we may as well start looking at steam as the new technology... you can burn anything to power those... lol.

Agree, technology leap is what is needed. Once that is sorted (eg Fusion reactor) the generation problems go away, but not the transmission and distribution. However I still think hydrogen will have a key part somehow as it simply comes from water with power added, the by product being simply Oxygen, and when it combusts its exhaust is water. Remember you can capture that water too and convert it back to hydrogen and oxygen again - the most basic battery of all.

The issue I see with EV's is batteries will at least for the near future add significant weight, regardless of whether it is an EV or a hybrid it is a significant weight penalty. I'm not sure how or when we will ever see batteries taking a significant leap in weight loss. Unless maybe we store the energy as a substance far lighter than air? (Hydrogen fits that bill!)

My beef with EV's (aside from the power equation) is the limited range. You can drive across Australia and not see a fuel station for days, but on highways could be 500km. You can carry extra fuel or worst case get extra fuel brought to you, carrying extra electricity isn't so easy. So over here a hybrid makes far more sense.

Yep, until we figure out how to produce Gigawatts of power without using fossil fuels or nuclear fission there really is no point in having all vehicles as EV's. Imagine how many extra tens of thousands of Gigawatts China or India would have to generate to replace all the IC vehicles they have now with EV's (ie to charge those EV's)! Over here we have Governments turning off coal fired generation, and I get it - excess generation of CO2 isn't good. But we struggle now with heatwaves, and whilst it may be 45degC during the day and solar can add a few dozen Megawatts into the system, it doesn't help once the sun goes down and it is still over 35degC so everyone wants to run their Aircons. Throw in another million people trying to also charge their EV's and you get rolling blackouts. So what happens? People install backup diesel or petrol generation, which produces much more CO2 than a coal fired station ever did.

Canadian Poncho · A Poncho Legend!

I think the Chevy Volt (not Bolt) was a good idea and was killed just when it was starting to be a really good vehicle. It plugs in giving about 50 miles of range (enough to get a lot of people to work and back) but has a 3 cylinder engine that will generate electricity to keep you going if you are driving farther.

MC · Canadian Poncho Superstar!

Canadian Poncho wrote:
I think the Chevy Volt (not Bolt) was a good idea and was killed just when it was starting to be a really good vehicle. It plugs in giving about 50 miles of range (enough to get a lot of people to work and back) but has a 3 cylinder engine that will generate electricity to keep you going if you are driving farther.

The concept is alive and well, as many companies now offer, or will offer PHEV vehicles. I think for anyone wanting to make the move towards an electric vehicle they are the best game in town at the moment. You can still charge your vehicle and run on complete electric for every day commutes. However, if you want to go on longer trips, or if you forget to charge your vehicle (or the power goes out through the night), you can still drive it like a regular petrol vehicle.

IMHO to make electric vehicles practical for everybody in the future, we will still have to have a technology leap and an infrastructure upgrade, as has been discussed here.

DonSSDD · Canadian Poncho Superstar!

There is a company in montague pei, home of CP, that was working on hybrid- wind and solar, with a battery backup. They want to sell them as stand alone systems, off the grid. Target is Caribbean Islands and the north. They are using 2 or 3 battery technologies beyond lithium.

They currently build hybrid diesels for marine, tugs, and they built an oil rig with hybrid power.

I like hydrogen but it seems to be slow developing at the consumer level. I think there will be a huge jump forward in battery tech- double the power, half the weight, and a 10 minute recharge, in the next 5 years. Some of the new evs have a 600-1000 km range. Very expensive but the price will come down quickly as volume kicks in. Then batteries will double those numbers and cut The weight in half again in another 5 years. All while using way less power off the grid to recharge.

In the last 5 years, look at how the cel phone batteries have improved? Downsized in size and weight, upsized in power, fast charging. What about your power tools- job sites have almost eliminated extension cords? Drills, saws, you name it, and they have lots of torque and charge in 30 minutes.

-- Edited by DonSSDD on Monday 27th of April 2020 03:21:57 PM

Canadian Poncho · A Poncho Legend!

I assume that company is Aspin Kemp? From what I hear the founder's of that company are brilliant. They have a huge solar array outside of their facility.

DonSSDD · Canadian Poncho Superstar!

Yes Todd, I had a tour in 2018 when they were installing some solar panels. They had units they build the size of a large refrigerator, just capacitors. Each capacitor was about 6 inches around and 2 ft long. The unit was full of these top to bottom. A lot of electricity capacity.