Cam, you may be right about California, but I do believe that the emergence of electric power and the demise of fossil fuels for road transportation is closer than we may think, if not for heavy transport then for people moving. 

The thing is, California has a very specific problem with thermal inversions being common. They also don't typically need a good heater. Internal combustion engines are great at producing heat for your heater.

California's problems are not common to the rest of North America, but the activists there are very proud of themselves.

The I.C. engine has cleaned up so much to the degree we though impossible. So, after carmakers invest so much into I.C. emissions technology and make it work, now lawmakers are creating feel-good legislation that basically invalidates all the progress and investment and throws it all away in favor of say, Al Gore's pet project. Really there is no levity and the consumer choices have all been made for you. If that doesn't make you mad then you are a better man than me.

Like it or not, it's not just a California thing.  It's happening all around the world - California is just pushing things along.

I don't get angry at things like this - technology has always progressed whether we like it or not.  The 1960s cars that we adore worked better than the cars of the 1920s because of increases in technology that the automakers forced upon us.  I recall reading an article written in the 1960s saying that the current crop of muscle cars would never be collectible like the 'real' antique cars because they were too cheaply built and had no appeal.  Nobody is saying that today.

The world is moving forward and there's nothing that any one of us can do about it individually.  Most people don't care about cars, they just want something reliable and cheap - and if that happens to be electric, they will buy it.  The automakers are not fools - they will not put out a product unless they feel they will not lose their shirts on it for warranty.  So... it's gonna happen whether we old guys like it or not.  Unless something else beyond our control changes that...

CdnGMfan wrote:

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The way they are forcing things is decidedly anti-democratic and entirely one-sided.  Adding millions rechargeable cars & trucks onto the electrical grid, does anybody remember the rolling brown-outs in California before those stresses were placed on the grid?

Certainly forcing things makes carmakers pay attention and it rushes development. It's just that it all sounds so Third Reich. Remember that generations fought and died for freedoms, but a softer generation is willing to give up freedoms just like that. Hmm...

There is special interest at work here, that is all I'm saying.

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 Political content removed by a moderator....

-- Edited by mike667 on Sunday 28th of June 2020 06:08:52 PM

Well said.

I'm just mad because I never hear them coming.

MC wrote:

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I'm purposely staying away from the political aspect of this, for many reasons.

From the technological aspect, I am interested to see where this goes.  IMHO, developing the technology to make it work and the infrastructure to support it is fully within our capabilities, especially when you consider the coalitions that are forming to problem-solve and develop.

I'm also separating myself from my personal feelings about it, as obviously I love old cars, internal combustion engines, and all the nostalgia attached to it.  But I can also see that this is a worldwide move towards electrification, and away from oil.  Some think it will happen sooner than I do, but there are so many unknowns at this point I can't have confidence in either opinion.

That said, I also like to keep an open mind towards new innovations, so I would not be unwilling to move to electric, but only after they are proven to be (1) affordable, (2) reliable, (3) have minimum 400 km range, (4) can be recharged fully in less than 10 minutes, (5) are proven to be safe (i.e. no random fires, electrocution, etc.).  I do have some questions about the effect of continual exposure to EMF on the body, but I'm not aware of any conclusive research out there at this point.

The beauty of armchair quarterbacking this, is that we can let California take all the risks, and see if it blows up in their face or not.  Everybody else will be watching, and if it proves to be viable, you will see things start to change.  IMHO, I will be too old to drive by the time electric cars become practical (enough for me) in a more-severe Canadian environment.  Hopefully by then we will have self driving cars so I can still get around as an old codger... 

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You have said it better than I could, but I am inclined to agree with you. More time is required to see where this goes, but if you accept experts' arguments about climate change (and I too want to avoid the political aspects of this topic), we don't have a lot of time to optimize our transportation and power gen technologies. 

gparis7 wrote:

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MC wrote:

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I'm purposely staying away from the political aspect of this, for many reasons.

From the technological aspect, I am interested to see where this goes.  IMHO, developing the technology to make it work and the infrastructure to support it is fully within our capabilities, especially when you consider the coalitions that are forming to problem-solve and develop.

I'm also separating myself from my personal feelings about it, as obviously I love old cars, internal combustion engines, and all the nostalgia attached to it.  But I can also see that this is a worldwide move towards electrification, and away from oil.  Some think it will happen sooner than I do, but there are so many unknowns at this point I can't have confidence in either opinion.

That said, I also like to keep an open mind towards new innovations, so I would not be unwilling to move to electric, but only after they are proven to be (1) affordable, (2) reliable, (3) have minimum 400 km range, (4) can be recharged fully in less than 10 minutes, (5) are proven to be safe (i.e. no random fires, electrocution, etc.).  I do have some questions about the effect of continual exposure to EMF on the body, but I'm not aware of any conclusive research out there at this point.

The beauty of armchair quarterbacking this, is that we can let California take all the risks, and see if it blows up in their face or not.  Everybody else will be watching, and if it proves to be viable, you will see things start to change.  IMHO, I will be too old to drive by the time electric cars become practical (enough for me) in a more-severe Canadian environment.  Hopefully by then we will have self driving cars so I can still get around as an old codger... 

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You have said it better than I could, but I am inclined to agree with you. More time is required to see where this goes, but if you accept experts' arguments about climate change (and I too want to avoid the political aspects of this topic), we don't have a lot of time to optimize our transportation and power gen technologies. 

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 Yeah, politics aside, the elephant in the room is that we really don't know where this environment/climate change thing is going to go, but the problem is that by the time we find out it will be too late.  

If we do nothing and it's OK, then we can say retrospectively that we were right.  If we do nothing and it goes to heck, then we will say we should have done something.  If we do something and it's OK, then we can't say that it wouldn't have been OK if we did nothing, but regardless we will still be OK.  It's a quandary.

Then if some huge asteroid hits the planet, none of it mattered anyhow...   

CdnGMfan wrote:

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The thing is, California has a very specific problem with thermal inversions being common. They also don't typically need a good heater. Internal combustion engines are great at producing heat for your heater.

California's problems are not common to the rest of North America, but the activists there are very proud of themselves.

The I.C. engine has cleaned up so much to the degree we though impossible. So, after carmakers invest so much into I.C. emissions technology and make it work, now lawmakers are creating feel-good legislation that basically invalidates all the progress and investment and throws it all away in favor of say, Al Gore's pet project. Really there is no levity and the consumer choices have all been made for you. If that doesn't make you mad then you are a better man than me.

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 Cam, as usual you make the most sense out of serious as well as automotive topics. 

I am always amazed that people overlook where all this electric power is going to come from to charge all these many electric vehicles. Last time i checked most of the worlds power comes from......................... nuclear power plants. Hey lets just build more of them.