Photobucket

Canadian Poncho Swag Now Available! CLICK HERE TO VISIT STORE!

 

 

Members Login
Username 
 
Password 
    Remember Me  
Post Info TOPIC: American vs. Canadian/rest of world Pontiac bias


Veteran Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 63
Date:
American vs. Canadian/rest of world Pontiac bias


So.......this may be a touchy subject, but I will try and be tactful and diplomatic.  Something I have noticed in owning a Canadian Pontiac for over 30 years, is the fact that the US publications do not seem to consider that Canadian/Australian/rest of world Pontiacs as worthy of respect as the common/comparable  American models. Twice now, I was asked to submit an article/story with pictures to American publications of significant stature. The editor of the first magazine told me my pictures and story were great and interesting. I was surprised when the issue came out to find a black and white photo of my car cropped and photoshopped in a way where 100% of the background and surrounding area eliminated entirely.  My story turned into a few generic sentences.  Many other cars in the issue were in full colour with background and scenery intact and a long write-up.  They were nice cars, but so much more common and stuff you would see quite frequently.....and they were all American models.

A few months ago, I sent in the story and pictures  that I wrote up a couple of years ago when my car was a monthly feature for this Forum to another major American magazine who was running a feature on Pontiacs. You all told me you loved the story I wrote for you. The editor of the magazine thought the article was exceptional and interesting and that the car was pretty cool. I saw the online version of the article last week.  Again, no mention of the car or article.  The cars in the article were ok. Some of the stories were good too, but I just don't think they were of the caliber of what I see what you guys and gals own or have written about,  mine included. 

I am not trying to be a arrogant sore loser, but it did get me thinking......is there a bias towards our cars? 

 

I would appreciate your input and experience.....



__________________

Kevin

1966 Pontiac Grande Parisienne 427/4spd

1966 Lincoln Continental Convertible

1968 Ferrari 365 GT 2+2

2000 Jaguar VDP Super V8

2008 Toyota Avalon XLS



A Poncho Legend!

Status: Offline
Posts: 25427
Date:

I suspect a US magazine would feel there wouldn't be enough interest in a car that wasn't available there. That's why I started this forum as back in 2008 there was little to no online information on these cars. 



__________________

Todd
Site Founder

Like us on Facebook. http://www.facebook.com/CanadianPoncho

Canadian Poncho World Headquarters - Prince Edward Island

 



Veteran Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 63
Date:

Hey Todd. I was just texting with Carl last night. He mentioned that yesterday was the day you started this Forum back in 2008. It just happens to be my car's birthday as well as his wife's birthday. Next year, I guess that means we should have 3 pieces of cake. Please keep up the great work on this Forum. It is obviously, to use today's jargon, "an essential service ".

__________________

Kevin

1966 Pontiac Grande Parisienne 427/4spd

1966 Lincoln Continental Convertible

1968 Ferrari 365 GT 2+2

2000 Jaguar VDP Super V8

2008 Toyota Avalon XLS



Guru

Status: Offline
Posts: 690
Date:

Yes , I believe there is bias and perhaps a little ignorance down south, when it comes to Canadian produced Pontiacs. However , in the same breath , I'm probably bias at car shows when i walk by imports ( or other models I'm not familiar with ) . I guess it is just human nature .
Good news though , The National Impala Association is now recognizing the Canadian built Pontiac 2+2's , as they realize the are the same as Chevrolet ( powertrains , frames etc..) . Perhaps over time , Canadian Pontiac's will be more widely accepted .

__________________

1969 Biscayne 2 dr sedan  L72 M22

1960 GMC Short Wide 455 T400

1969 Chevelle Concours Wagon  LM1 M20 ( project) 

 

 



Canadian Poncho Superstar!

Status: Offline
Posts: 8956
Date:

Not surprising Kevin. But that is probably the thinking of the hard core PMD guys.

K's 66 BB.JPG

 

 



Attachments
__________________
65 Laurentian post, 67 Grande Parisienne 4 door HT. 
 


Canadian Poncho Superstar!

Status: Offline
Posts: 4832
Date:

I  filled out one of those "how are we doing?" surveys about 6 or 8 months ago from Hagerty insurance.

I proceeded to give them crap ratings on on a number of things, and that lead to getting another questionaire last fall from

them asking in detail why I felt  they did poorly. My major beef  was about one of their so called "perks' for having Hagerty insurance.

They have this on line Car  Valuation feature that I called out as useless to Canadian drivers with Canadian built cars.

https://www.hagerty.ca/apps/valuationtools/search/auto/Pontiac

This "feature" isn't for Canadians who own those distinctly different cars built here and are not like their American counterparts.

I told them if they are doing business in Canada and are offering a Car Valuation then have it for all cars that we drive and

collect. That questionaire was about two months ago and I haven't  gotten a response yet.....(and I doubt if I will)

If everyone who has Hagerty collector car insurance tells them what I did, maybe we could get them to

actually get this valuation done for the Canadian cars collected on this side of the border. There are many,many distinct cars built here that should be recognized.

This American company needs to realize we are not all driving American and Foreign cars or that we have our own vehicles that we are proud to own.

-G



-- Edited by Greaser on Thursday 14th of January 2021 10:59:57 PM

__________________


A Poncho Legend!

Status: Offline
Posts: 45886
Date:

Some of you know I owned Kevin's car for about 9 years in the '80s. In 1986 I took that car to North Carolina to the Pontiac convention. People there were very gracious and asked a lot of questions about the car. There were no negative comments. I spent an incredible few days at that convention explaining to guys about Canadian Pontiacs and really enjoyed it. However, when I'm  reading on the US Pontiac forums there is often a lot of negative talk about our "Chevy chassis" Canadian pontiacs. I know exactly what Kevin is referring to here. Many of the US model owners would not take the time to look at a Canadian Pontiac. I feel that's very unfortunate because in my mind they are a very important part of Pontiac history.

A different year I took my Acadian to the Pontiac convention. When I pulled up to the hotel to register someone ran up to me and told me I wasn't in the right place! I very politely explained that this was a car sold at Canadian Pontiac dealerships.



__________________

1966 Strato Chief 2 door, 427 4 speed, 44,000 original miles 



A Poncho Legend!

Status: Offline
Posts: 25427
Date:

Good point about Hagerty's valuation tool. There's also a "Can't find your vehicle?" link on the valuation tool. I suggest we all submit a Canadian Pontiac, Acadian or Beaumont model. I just did.


__________________

Todd
Site Founder

Like us on Facebook. http://www.facebook.com/CanadianPoncho

Canadian Poncho World Headquarters - Prince Edward Island

 



Guru

Status: Offline
Posts: 791
Date:

Canadian Poncho wrote:

Good point about Hagerty's valuation tool. There's also a "Can't find your vehicle?" link on the valuation tool. I suggest we all submit a Canadian Pontiac, Acadian or Beaumont model. I just did.


I did the same, twice! Once for my Pontiac and the second time for a 1971 Chevrolet Bel-Air 2-door Sport Coupe. The latter was sold in Canada until 1975 as the U.S. only had the 4-door sedan version and my father had one (I believe I even posted photos of that car on this forum before) so going back to Haggerty, it isn't only Pontiacs but other Canadian marketed cars as well.



__________________

"Dad, which car are we taking?"                      "The Pontiac!"

"Which one?"                                                    "The red one!"

'67 Parisienne 2+2 - red

'01 Montana            - red

'06 Buick Allure

'12    Japanese minivan

MC


Canadian Poncho Superstar!

Status: Offline
Posts: 7216
Date:

4SPEED427 wrote:

Some of you know I owned Kevin's car for about 9 years in the '80s. In 1986 I took that car to North Carolina to the Pontiac convention. People there were very gracious and asked a lot of questions about the car. There were no negative comments. I spent an incredible few days at that convention explaining to guys about Canadian Pontiacs and really enjoyed it. However, when I'm  reading on the US Pontiac forums there is often a lot of negative talk about our "Chevy chassis" Canadian pontiacs. I know exactly what Kevin is referring to here. Many of the US model owners would not take the time to look at a Canadian Pontiac. I feel that's very unfortunate because in my mind they are a very important part of Pontiac history.

A different year I took my Acadian to the Pontiac convention. When I pulled up to the hotel to register someone ran up to me and told me I wasn't in the right place! I very politely explained that this was a car sold at Canadian Pontiac dealerships.


 Interesting.  I can't imagine why there would be a negative reaction to what amounts to the most rare and unique Pontiacs out there, but I always find that aspect of the hobby to be a little strange anyhow.  From what you're saying it seems like it's more about the fact that they aren't "pure" Pontiacs vs merely being Canadian.

And... you took an Acadian to a Pontiac convention, Carl?  What were you thinking?  wink  biggrin



__________________


A Poncho Legend!

Status: Offline
Posts: 45886
Date:

MC wrote:
Interesting.  I can't imagine why there would be a negative reaction to what amounts to the most rare and unique Pontiacs out there, but I always find that aspect of the hobby to be a little strange anyhow.  From what you're saying it seems like it's more about the fact that they aren't "pure" Pontiacs vs merely being Canadian.

And... you took an Acadian to a Pontiac convention, Carl?  What were you thinking?  wink  biggrin


 Many of the US Pontiac guys are diehard Pontiac powertrain guys, totally anti-Chevy. To them, a Chevy engine is just like a Ford, Dodge, whatever....

And as far as the Acadian, yeah........ troublemaker.............!!!

t1.jpg

 



Attachments
__________________

1966 Strato Chief 2 door, 427 4 speed, 44,000 original miles 



Addicted!

Status: Offline
Posts: 123
Date:

Hi Kevin,

It is probably true that most US publications tend to favor American made cars.  And the point about the engine distinction is probably one of the reasons why.  My perspective is more balanced.  When I bought my Beaumont I was a dyed in the wool Chevy man.  One of the reasons I bought my Pontiac was because of the engine.  Note that I said Pontiac.  I'm not one of those who think that a Beaumont isn't a Pontiac.  In my view a Beaumont is a Canadian Pontiac that uses Chevrolet mechanicals.  The best of both worlds.

All the best,

Bob



__________________
MC


Canadian Poncho Superstar!

Status: Offline
Posts: 7216
Date:

4SPEED427 wrote:
MC wrote:
Interesting.  I can't imagine why there would be a negative reaction to what amounts to the most rare and unique Pontiacs out there, but I always find that aspect of the hobby to be a little strange anyhow.  From what you're saying it seems like it's more about the fact that they aren't "pure" Pontiacs vs merely being Canadian.

And... you took an Acadian to a Pontiac convention, Carl?  What were you thinking?  wink  biggrin


 Many of the US Pontiac guys are diehard Pontiac powertrain guys, totally anti-Chevy. To them, a Chevy engine is just like a Ford, Dodge, whatever....

And as far as the Acadian, yeah........ troublemaker.............!!!

t1.jpg

 


 I'm a little surprised that it would come down to an engine, but like I said, I've never really understood how some people in the hobby seem to be allergic to things that don't fall into a certain category.  I'll never understand that, actually, aside from the jabs that we all like to give one another that are all in fun.

Yeah, you're a pot-stirrer, but I'm not averse to that myself... wink



__________________


Canadian Poncho Superstar!

Status: Offline
Posts: 7773
Date:

you acadian pontiac guys are getting outa hand here beaumont pontiacs are canadian

__________________

http://canadianponcho.activeboard.com/t51640378/timbuks-first-invader/ http://canadianponcho.activeboard.com/t63146560/timbuks-second-invader/  vancouver island

MC


Canadian Poncho Superstar!

Status: Offline
Posts: 7216
Date:

Coop wrote:

Hi Kevin,

It is probably true that most US publications tend to favor American made cars.  And the point about the engine distinction is probably one of the reasons why.  My perspective is more balanced.  When I bought my Beaumont I was a dyed in the wool Chevy man.  One of the reasons I bought my Pontiac was because of the engine.  Note that I said Pontiac.  I'm not one of those who think that a Beaumont isn't a Pontiac.  In my view a Beaumont is a Canadian Pontiac that uses Chevrolet mechanicals.  The best of both worlds.

All the best,

Bob


I'm of a similar opinion when it comes to branding of these vehicles.  But I'm treading lightly as some folks take it very seriously.

FWIW, when I had my '68 Beaumont many years ago, I went out and bought a Pontiac hat because in my mind that's what it was... wink

IMHO, whether it's called a Pontiac or not, as long as it's a cool old car it's good in my books.  



__________________


Guru

Status: Offline
Posts: 723
Date:

As a border straddler all my life who is a big fan of American Pontiac but who also has a Canadian one I think I can add some interesting input...

First, is that it is normal that the general public outside of Canada will have a limited interest in Canadian cars simply because Canada is a very small market. To many Americans their interest in a Canadian only model would be the same as for say Mexico spec chevy. In fairness, how many of us here have any interest in that same Latin American market Chevy?

Second, it is the hard to pigeon hole the nature of Canadian Ponchos, are they really Pontiac's with Chevy engines or chevies with Pontiac styling? I think they are more the latter. This is obvious with Acadians and Beaumonts which are obviously chevies with only slighlt changed grilles and emblems (and a Pontiac dashpad on Beaumonts) to distinguish them. Even the fullsize Canadian Ponchos are more Chevy than Pontiac in that the only Pontiac elements are some body panels, dashboard and trim, every single mechanical component from the drivetrain to suspension, frame right to windshield wipers are pure Chevrolet.

Other elements are at play too, Pontiac fans have always had that inferiority complex versus giant Chevrolet (like Canadians have to the US in general) which is even worse now since Pontiac got chopped. This is countered by Pontiac being one ladder rung up from Chevrolet in terms of price and "prestige". So a car made to look like a Pontiac but that is really a Chevrolet mechanically can obviously give off that undesirable scent of a "poseur".

Lastly part of the partisan appeal of 60's car collectors is that back then each division was a "real" car with it's own engine, not just brand engineered like they became in the 80's to now so the fact that Canadian Poncho's are brand engineered by definition they lack that "real" label that is important to most 60's GM fans.

Of course there is a totally different way to look at this, which I suspect exactly how most of the people on this site view it... Canadian Poncho appeal comes from few major points; one is the nationalistic appeal of it being a unique Canadian car, something we never had much of here! Second is the uniqueness of these cars and their rarity (Canadian market is a small one to begin with and Canadian weather savaged the survival rate). Lastly you get all the advantages of having a Chevrolet (huge variety of parts availability at lowest cost possible plus bulletproof Chevy engineering) without the commonness of having just another chevelle or impala.

I've come to realize in my years that you have to worry a lot less about what other people think about us and instead just enjoy what we enjoy.

__________________

John

Montreal 

21 1969 American Pontiacs

and a 1969 Canadian 2+2 Hardtop



Veteran Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 58
Date:

North wrote:

Lastly part of the partisan appeal of 60's car collectors is that back then each division was a "real" car with it's own engine, not just brand engineered like they became in the 80's to now so the fact that Canadian Poncho's are brand engineered by definition they lack that "real" label that is important to most 60's GM fans.


I think this is probably the key to it. If you're fiercely protective of the identity of your "real" Pontiac, you're probably pretty suspicious of a Canadian car that looks like the precursor to the badge-engineered car and death of the "real" Pontiacs. I think that is sort of understandable, though it is unfortunate that the end result is a lack of respect for a whole host of unique cars.

My Impala is a 16437 (V8 Impala 2-dr coupe) with A51 bucket seat option. It is equipped as an SS in every way, and to my knowledge, was from the factory. As far as I've been able to gather, that's just how an Impala SS was ordered/built in Canada, but I think there's still a few crusty guys in the US who would turn their noses up at it because it doesn't have a 16837 on the cowl tag. Which is utter foolishness if you ask me, considering the SS is really just a trim package and was available in just about any configuration!



__________________
MC


Canadian Poncho Superstar!

Status: Offline
Posts: 7216
Date:

North wrote:

As a border straddler all my life who is a big fan of American Pontiac but who also has a Canadian one I think I can add some interesting input...

First, is that it is normal that the general public outside of Canada will have a limited interest in Canadian cars simply because Canada is a very small market. To many Americans their interest in a Canadian only model would be the same as for say Mexico spec chevy. In fairness, how many of us here have any interest in that same Latin American market Chevy?

Second, it is the hard to pigeon hole the nature of Canadian Ponchos, are they really Pontiac's with Chevy engines or chevies with Pontiac styling? I think they are more the latter. This is obvious with Acadians and Beaumonts which are obviously chevies with only slighlt changed grilles and emblems (and a Pontiac dashpad on Beaumonts) to distinguish them. Even the fullsize Canadian Ponchos are more Chevy than Pontiac in that the only Pontiac elements are some body panels, dashboard and trim, every single mechanical component from the drivetrain to suspension, frame right to windshield wipers are pure Chevrolet.

Other elements are at play too, Pontiac fans have always had that inferiority complex versus giant Chevrolet (like Canadians have to the US in general) which is even worse now since Pontiac got chopped. This is countered by Pontiac being one ladder rung up from Chevrolet in terms of price and "prestige". So a car made to look like a Pontiac but that is really a Chevrolet mechanically can obviously give off that undesirable scent of a "poseur".

Lastly part of the partisan appeal of 60's car collectors is that back then each division was a "real" car with it's own engine, not just brand engineered like they became in the 80's to now so the fact that Canadian Poncho's are brand engineered by definition they lack that "real" label that is important to most 60's GM fans.

Of course there is a totally different way to look at this, which I suspect exactly how most of the people on this site view it... Canadian Poncho appeal comes from few major points; one is the nationalistic appeal of it being a unique Canadian car, something we never had much of here! Second is the uniqueness of these cars and their rarity (Canadian market is a small one to begin with and Canadian weather savaged the survival rate). Lastly you get all the advantages of having a Chevrolet (huge variety of parts availability at lowest cost possible plus bulletproof Chevy engineering) without the commonness of having just another chevelle or impala.

I've come to realize in my years that you have to worry a lot less about what other people think about us and instead just enjoy what we enjoy.


 Well said, especially the last sentence.



__________________


A Poncho Legend!

Status: Offline
Posts: 45886
Date:

MC wrote:
 Well said, especially the last sentence.

 Scary. I read through it and scrolled down here to post exactly what you wrote!



__________________

1966 Strato Chief 2 door, 427 4 speed, 44,000 original miles 



A Poncho Legend!

Status: Offline
Posts: 45886
Date:

jduffett wrote:
I think this is probably the key to it. If you're fiercely protective of the identity of your "real" Pontiac, you're probably pretty suspicious of a Canadian car that looks like the precursor to the badge-engineered car and death of the "real" Pontiacs. I think that is sort of understandable, though it is unfortunate that the end result is a lack of respect for a whole host of unique cars.

My Impala is a 16437 (V8 Impala 2-dr coupe) with A51 bucket seat option. It is equipped as an SS in every way, and to my knowledge, was from the factory. As far as I've been able to gather, that's just how an Impala SS was ordered/built in Canada, but I think there's still a few crusty guys in the US who would turn their noses up at it because it doesn't have a 16837 on the cowl tag. Which is utter foolishness if you ask me, considering the SS is really just a trim package and was available in just about any configuration!


 You don't have the GM documents for your car? That would tell the story. I never say never but I've never (!) seen a regular 66 Impala with factory buckets. Chevelle yes but not in the Novas or Impalas.



__________________

1966 Strato Chief 2 door, 427 4 speed, 44,000 original miles 



A Poncho Legend!

Status: Offline
Posts: 25427
Date:


GM Vintage Vehicle Services can verify how your car was built.
https://www.vintagevehicleservices.com/
jduffett wrote:


I think this is probably the key to it. If you're fiercely protective of the identity of your "real" Pontiac, you're probably pretty suspicious of a Canadian car that looks like the precursor to the badge-engineered car and death of the "real" Pontiacs. I think that is sort of understandable, though it is unfortunate that the end result is a lack of respect for a whole host of unique cars.

My Impala is a 16437 (V8 Impala 2-dr coupe) with A51 bucket seat option. It is equipped as an SS in every way, and to my knowledge, was from the factory. As far as I've been able to gather, that's just how an Impala SS was ordered/built in Canada, but I think there's still a few crusty guys in the US who would turn their noses up at it because it doesn't have a 16837 on the cowl tag. Which is utter foolishness if you ask me, considering the SS is really just a trim package and was available in just about any configuration!


 



__________________

Todd
Site Founder

Like us on Facebook. http://www.facebook.com/CanadianPoncho

Canadian Poncho World Headquarters - Prince Edward Island

 



Veteran Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 58
Date:

4SPEED427 wrote:

 You don't have the GM documents for your car? That would tell the story. I never say never but I've never (!) seen a regular 66 Impala with factory buckets. Chevelle yes but not in the Novas or Impalas.


No I don't. My belief is that it is a "true" SS, despite the style number. I can't recall where I read it, but I do recall reading somewhere that for some other Canadian GM models (probably A-bodies?) in the same time frame SS cars didn't get a unique style number like US cars did. Based on the way my cowl tag decodes, and no evidence to my eye or from my knowledge of the car's history that somebody went through the effort to make an SS clone, I think this must have applied for Impalas too.

Style 16437 1-3-7 = (16437) Impala 2 door coupe V8 (1) 1st shift (3) March (7) 7th

Body No. 149291 = Body Number

Paint C = Ermine White

Trim 873 = Impala SuperSport Bucket Seats, red

A51 M35  U80 = (A51) Seat, Frt Bkt Pass, Driver (M35) Powerglide Automatic Transmission (U80) Speaker System, RR

 

Canadian Poncho wrote:

 GM Vintage Vehicle Services can verify how your car was built.

https://www.vintagevehicleservices.com/


Thanks for that. I assume they charge for that service?

 

Anyway, didn't mean to derail the thread... Just pointing out another way some Canadian GM idiosyncrasies sometimes aren't really recognized south of the border!



__________________
MC


Canadian Poncho Superstar!

Status: Offline
Posts: 7216
Date:

4SPEED427 wrote:
MC wrote:
 Well said, especially the last sentence.

 Scary. I read through it and scrolled down here to post exactly what you wrote!


 I was going to say great minds think alike, but then I realized I'd be overvaluing my brainpower!  At least I'm in good company!  smile



__________________


A Poncho Legend!

Status: Offline
Posts: 45886
Date:

jduffett wrote:
4SPEED427 wrote:

 You don't have the GM documents for your car? That would tell the story. I never say never but I've never (!) seen a regular 66 Impala with factory buckets. Chevelle yes but not in the Novas or Impalas.


No I don't. My belief is that it is a "true" SS, despite the style number. I can't recall where I read it, but I do recall reading somewhere that for some other Canadian GM models (probably A-bodies?) in the same time frame SS cars didn't get a unique style number like US cars did. Based on the way my cowl tag decodes, and no evidence to my eye or from my knowledge of the car's history that somebody went through the effort to make an SS clone, I think this must have applied for Impalas too.

Style 16437 1-3-7 = (16437) Impala 2 door coupe V8 (1) 1st shift (3) March (7) 7th

Body No. 149291 = Body Number

Paint C = Ermine White

Trim 873 = Impala SuperSport Bucket Seats, red

A51 M35  U80 = (A51) Seat, Frt Bkt Pass, Driver (M35) Powerglide Automatic Transmission (U80) Speaker System, RR

 


 You HAVE to get your documents! If they come back as a 16437 with A51, you have a rare car!



__________________

1966 Strato Chief 2 door, 427 4 speed, 44,000 original miles 



A Poncho Legend!

Status: Offline
Posts: 25427
Date:

Yes, Vintage Vehicle Services charges for the docs but it's WELL worth it.

Here's the docs I got for a 75 Firebird Esprit that I owned:

 

BuildsheetA.jpg

 

BuildsheetB.jpg

Does anyone know what the cost is now for the docs? I'm pondering getting them for my 94 Chevy Pickup. 



Attachments
__________________

Todd
Site Founder

Like us on Facebook. http://www.facebook.com/CanadianPoncho

Canadian Poncho World Headquarters - Prince Edward Island

 

1 2  >  Last»  | Page of 2  sorted by
 
Quick Reply

Please log in to post quick replies.

Tweet this page Post to Digg Post to Del.icio.us
.
Support Canadian Poncho!
Select Amount:
<
.
.
.