Most people don't realize it, but Electrical generation in Ontario is actually green by a long shot. Nuclear and Hydro account for approx. 80% of power production. Natural gas comes in at only around 7%. Wind even tops natural gas here.

So EV's, at least on paper in our most populous province, make some sense as a way forward to significantly reduce the transportation carbon footprint. I'm sure most EV technical issues in the video encountered and costs will eventually be overcome and reduced to a point that the EV will become widespread and appliance like. 

Give me a decent sized EV with good range, utility, performance and cost equivalent to say a large SUV, and I'd consider it. I might be waiting 6 or 7 years, but I'm sure they are coming.

Canadian Poncho wrote:

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The problem (apparently) with hydrogen is the inability to produce it in a green way (which the infrastructure we have now). It takes a lot of natural gas to make vast amounts of hydrogen. But then again our current electrical grid isn't really green either so the same arguement can be said about EVs.

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 I always get lost in the argument for hydrogen fuel cells as I am failing to see what you get out of it, other than a shorter refueling time than today's EV recharging time.  As it looks to me, hydrogen fuel cell vehicles (FCEV) are just a battery electric vehicle (BEV, or EV for short) with more complexity and cost added on in the form of a fuel cell unit to convert the hydrogen to electricity and a fuel system capable of holding and delivering pressurized hydrogen to the fuel cell.

Meanwhile, as you say, hydrogen gas must be manufactured, then it must be delivered to the fueling station by a truck, presumably, pumped into pressurized holding tanks at the fueling station for the customer, so no real advantage over current fossil fuel delivery (probably extra danger involved as fueling pressurized hydrogen requires more care than filling a tank with liquid gasoline or diesel).

I'm also curious how you keep the 'exhausted' water from freezing up in the pipe during cold Canadian winters - presumably you would have to use some power to keep it heated so it doesn't freeze up (what would happen to the fuel cell if it backed up with ice?).

So EVs would require many more batteries than an FCEV to have equivalent range, so I give that to them, but from what I've seen, EVs designed from the ground up tend to have the batteries situated at the bottom of the vehicle, where they don't take up interior/trunk space like hydrogen tanks would, plus the low-mounted batteries have the added advantage of lowering the vehicle's center of gravity, providing better handling characteristics and reduced likelihood of rollovers.

Also, if you think about how most cars are used, typically people don't max out the range every day, so EVs could be driven during the day for commutes, shopping or whatever, and then 'topped up' at night on the charger at home.  Presumably, you would only have to 'refuel' at a station when you are on long trips, or if you have a very long commute every day (however, if the future is for 1000 km of range like that Mercedes article posted a couple of weeks ago, most people are rarely ever going to use up 1000 km of range in one day).  On top of that, battery technology is constantly improving such that they are going to provide more range with less weight and shorter recharge times.

So this is where the hydrogen fuel cell argument loses me - there's added complexity and cost, but the benefits are not clear.  The more I think about it, the more it sounds like a cool idea whose time has passed.

As far as the power grid is concerned, as I understand it, most power utilities are moving away from combustion-related power generation methods, to 'greener' methods, such as this proposed wind farm in NS:  https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/nova-scotia-renewable-energy-wind-farm-windsor-hants-county-benjamins-mills-1.6320351  Moving into the future the 'electric vehicle run by coal' argument will be a non-starter, IMHO.

I see all of this as a work in progress that probably shouldn't be judged until we get there, but all indications are that there will be a good usable technology for vehicles that will be better for the environment.  I don't like change as much as the next guy, plus I will always be a fan of IC engines, but I don't see this move as being a net negative.  We in developed countries have long been living in unsustainable ways, and as the world's population continues to expand it's becoming more apparent that we are going to be in trouble if we do nothing - developing countries are all wanting to live the 'good life' that we enjoy, and with old/current technologies, we will be in trouble if nothing is done about it...  <---My Opinion only, but the science community seems to be thinking in this manner as well.

FWIW, it probably seems like I'm being pretty hard on hydrogen fuel cell vehicles.  I don't mean to sound overly biased (or at worst, confrontational - definitely not my intent) about them, as the technology is really really cool.  At one point early in my career I was extremely interested in them as the way of the future - they were exciting times as many of the car manufacturers were working on developing FCV (or FCEV or HFC... too many acronyms out there) technology and it looked like we all might be driving one someday.  However, it wasn't to be, and auto manufacturers slowly and quietly started dropping their hydrogen programs.

If you have time (and are interested), click on the link below to go to an informative explanation on hydrogen fuel cell vehicles and why they are not the best choice for future vehicle technology.  It is written by somebody who has a deep understanding of the technology (unlike myself) and can explain it well:

https://ssj3gohan.tweakblogs.net/blog/11470/why-fuel-cell-cars-dont-work-part-1

It's worth the read if you are interested in such things (IMHO). 

Also, note that it was written in Feb 2015, so the comments about the current state of BEV technology are now almost 7 years old, light years ago in BEV technology development.

It took decades for the tobacco industry to concede. It will take decades for the petroleum industry to concede also. Lots of "dealing$" running in the background.

MC wrote:

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Also, note that it was written in Feb 2015, so the comments about the current state of BEV technology are now almost 7 years old, light years ago in BEV technology development.

 

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 I read the article and you're right it was written in 2015 and things change quickly in the 

auto world these days. His involvement in Hydrogen went even further back, 2007. I believe

today Hydrogen is very much improved from those days, and has covered a lot of the 

technical issues he encountered in his hydrogen days.

One of the things that I learned from the Irishman's video is not only is there a lack of 

standardization of charging stations, and the time factor in charging, but the idea that

"you can charge at home" might seem like a given here in Canada, but in many places in 

Europe that is not possible.

Many (if not most) people in Europe live in small houses without property or in 

apartments, and they would be lucky to even have a place to park let along

a place to charge their car. I also noted that in order to charge your car, you need a cell 

phone....what happens if you have no cell phone or your cell phone fails ? 

How safe would anyone be having to wait 30 minutes while charging their EV in some 

stand alone charging station located in an isolated area in a city you are unfamiliar with.?

Not me, that's for sure. These will be issues that the EV people will have to address.

While some automakers have given up on Hydrogen (GM,VW) hydrogen must have some 

value, other auto companies are still heavily involved in the development 

of fuel cells. Time will tell if Hydrogen will be part of the future.

-G

https://www.reuters.com/technology/german-auto-giants-place-their-bets-hydrogen-cars-2021-09-22/

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-11-30/korean-automaker-hyundai-invests-in-hydrogen-powered-cars-despite-ev-dominance

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/11/16/toyota-ceo-races-hydrogen-car-amid-push-for-carbon-neutrality.html

https://fuelcellsworks.com/news/the-first-hydrogen-trucks-are-rolling-in-europe/