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Post Info TOPIC: NUMBERS MATCHING:


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NUMBERS MATCHING:


numbers matching when distilled to the most basic elements means that the original components which received a partial vin stamp to match the car are still present.

With most (post 1967?) cars, that means the engine and transmission have the last six digits of the vehicle stamped there.

Unfortunately there are unscrupulous individuals who will stamp these numbers to make a car appear to be numbers matching - in those instances, decoding the casting dates of components, and knowing what was happening around that time at that factory can more often than not expose funny business.

A car can be numbers matching but have replacement service parts such as alternator, carburetor ect.

There are different levels of correctness for numbers or non-numbers cars - it really comes down to how correct you, as the cars owner, want your car to be.

In the case of cars built with incorrect components, I have understood that if the owner was able to prove with out a doubt that the car was built and delivered that way, they get a pass.



-- Edited by unruhjonny on Saturday 22nd of April 2023 11:09:22 AM

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1970 Formula 400
Carousel Red on black (std) interior
"no drivetrain option" car (same base drivetrain as GTO)
1:411 1970 Firebird Formulas originally sold in Canada

Luke 23: 39-43 / Ephesians 2: 8-9  / 1 Corinthians 2:12-14 / 2 Timothy 3:1-5;12



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unruhjonny wrote:

We can go around and around in a circle over this till we beat it to death.. BUT I'm Damn sure of what I previously stated in this thread

 

numbers matching when distilled to the most basic elements means that the original components which received a partial vin stamp to match the car are still present.

The basic elements is NOt correct when it comes numbers matching. There are very few parts that GM produced pre 72 that do not have a date code, colour stamp, clock stamp on them. Being able recognize and decipher the code is the problem.

With most (post 1967?) cars, that means the engine and transmission have the last six digits of the vehicle stamped there.

Unfortunately there are unscrupulous individuals who will stamp these numbers to make a car appear to be numbers matching - in those instances, decoding the casting dates of components, and knowing what was happening around that time at that factory can more often than not expose funny business.

A car can be numbers matching but have replacement service parts such as alternator, carburetor ect.

Not correct

There are different levels of correctness for numbers or non-numbers cars - it really comes down to how correct you, as the cars owner, want your car to be.

Not correct. To be certified as a NCRS top level, it must have all the parameters previously noted

In the case of cars built with incorrect components, I have understood that if the owner was able to prove with out a doubt that the car was built and delivered that way, they get a pass.

Pretty hard to prove, there would have to be more than one. Then the car would be previously known. They have documentation to prove you wrong in most cases, why would 3-4 cars produced on the same day have different parts? You have car #2, the #1 car has the same part number as #3 and 4. Back in the late 80's when NCRS started, this might happen, not now they have so much documentation and an immense data base now....



-- Edited by unruhjonny on Saturday 22nd of April 2023 11:09:22 AM


 THE END



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Addicted!

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Ive got the numbers matching 350 from my 72 Nova SS stuck in a corner in my shed. After reading this thread Im wondering why Im using up storage space hanging onto it. Ive never worried about numbers matching, survivor or original with either my Nova or Beaumont because neither of them qualified when I bought them. The fact that they are documented SS and SD cars is good enough for me.



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72 Nova SS,   66 Beaumont Sport Deluxe,   09 Pontiac Solstice GXP Coupe



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/\ except a documented SS (ect) car is a big price difference from a documented SS car with a numbers drivetrain.

Most of these cars lost their original drivetrains decades ago.

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1970 Formula 400
Carousel Red on black (std) interior
"no drivetrain option" car (same base drivetrain as GTO)
1:411 1970 Firebird Formulas originally sold in Canada

Luke 23: 39-43 / Ephesians 2: 8-9  / 1 Corinthians 2:12-14 / 2 Timothy 3:1-5;12



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@LT1caddy
Your partial quote was a little tough to follow - it initially looked like you simply quoted me and finished with the end.

Only upon further re-inspection did I notice you made replies inside the quote.

Date coding parts is in fact an extension of numbers matching.
Date coding parts is far from an exact science.
The date coding of components is generally practiced when a numbers car is found to have later service replacement parts - so date correct parts are searched for to make the vehicle more correct.

As an example, for a given vehicle/drivetrain there is a correct carburetor application number;
Id guess that more than 99% of the time the correct application number carburetor was used;
But there is inconsistent dating for engine components added at the vehicle manufacturing facility.
There are loose rules surrounding accepted norms for components, but since engines and components were placed newest up front, you can have a newer vehicle with an older dated engine, or older dated components.

We can agree to disagree on what the basic intent of numbers matching would be, thats fine;
I will be sticking to my opinion that the term as I have understood it was intended to imply that the vehicle vin matched the partial vin of the engine and transmission.
Unless the component came with a partial vin, it cannot be proven as original to the vehicle.

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1970 Formula 400
Carousel Red on black (std) interior
"no drivetrain option" car (same base drivetrain as GTO)
1:411 1970 Firebird Formulas originally sold in Canada

Luke 23: 39-43 / Ephesians 2: 8-9  / 1 Corinthians 2:12-14 / 2 Timothy 3:1-5;12



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unruhjonny wrote:


We can agree to disagree on what the basic intent of numbers matching would be, thats fine;
I will be sticking to my opinion that the term as I have understood it was intended to imply that the vehicle vin matched the partial vin of the engine and transmission.
Unless the component came with a partial vin, it cannot be proven as original to the vehicle.


 I was in NCRS from almost the start, membership #467. I had a 2 owner Corvette 72 LT1. It was #s matching after 22 years it took me to find the correct starter, part # and date code. That was the ONLY part that did not jive with build date.

I judged cars, I had my car judged and obtained a judging certificate in the early 90's. So I do know a little...

Everyone is entitled to an opinion...  I was just passing on the facts as I saw them trying to help a fellow CP guy.



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interesting.

Thanks for the additional information.

I always understood that Corvette judging was in a different class - but didn't realize that Corvette judging was such a departure from what I have become familiar with.

I have understood that the Corvette guys are essentially responsible for all the "number" lingo - and it getting adopted to many other vehicle types.

I wonder if date coding is more consistent with cars from Bowling Green - versus "more pedestrian" cars built in multiple plants across the continent(?).

My car will never be numbers matching (I have been unable to trace ownership before 1985- my car came with a NOM when I got it in 1995) - but I have an engine from another Firebird Formula from the same plant, and likely built on the same day as my car.
I have been trying to find everything that's as close to perfect as possible - which sent me down the date coded component search.

I am curious, incase you know, if there is a known date spread for 1969 Corvettes built with the Muncie three speed (unless I am mistaken I believe it was a 1969-only option) - I am finding date spreads (between casting, and car built date) in excess of a year.



-- Edited by unruhjonny on Tuesday 25th of April 2023 04:22:00 PM

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1970 Formula 400
Carousel Red on black (std) interior
"no drivetrain option" car (same base drivetrain as GTO)
1:411 1970 Firebird Formulas originally sold in Canada

Luke 23: 39-43 / Ephesians 2: 8-9  / 1 Corinthians 2:12-14 / 2 Timothy 3:1-5;12

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Corvette judging was the start of the "numbers" matching" parade. But the Z28 Camaro guys have taken it over the top from what I've seen for the price of parts..

Date coding is MOST prevalent now... Go in to the dealer to buy a specific part and they will ask you for the VIN first off. Because there is a) some many different suppliers, b) different plants using different parts, c) running production changes enabled by the use of computers etc

69 Vette question... NOT the only year for a 3 speed,(off the top of my head I'm not sure it was a Muncie) We had a guy in our club with a 66-67 Vette coupe, beautiful car, rare for all wrong reasons, it had a 3 speed tranny documented here in Canada.

The rarity of the 3 speed (who in their right mind would order it!!) would go AGAINST all I said about date coding. They probably built 3 months or more production between the orders. The 3 speed is RARE, so they would only have a few on hand dated close to the start of production.....An anomaly

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Canadian Poncho Superstar!

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As an aside, the 3-speeds in Corvettes were simply garden variety Saginaw 3-speeds with 2.54:1 1st gear. There is nothing special about it other than they probably got very dusty at the Corvette plant (since only 230 were made in 1969).

 

Here's a '68 3-speed that was at Legendary Motorcar back in 2004:

6004_06.jpeg



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Thanks for that info and backing...

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69 Vette question... NOT the only year for a 3 speed,(off the top of my head I'm not sure it was a Muncie) We had a guy in our club with a 66-67 Vette coupe, beautiful car, rare for all wrong reasons, it had a 3 speed tranny documented here in Canada.

The rarity of the 3 speed (who in their right mind would order it!!) would go AGAINST all I said about date coding. They probably built 3 months or more production between the orders. The 3 speed is RARE, so they would only have a few on hand dated close to the start of production.....An anomaly


Prior to 1969 there was only the saginaw, or older designed lower torque rated three speeds;
My understanding is that prior to 1970 all GM divisions which wanted a three speed behind a high torque engine, a Dearborn (read: Ford) three speed was used - but as far as I know, Chevrolet NEVER spec'd the Dearborn three speed, instead it required a transmission option (four speed or TH400).
In 1969 (afaik) all Chevrolet "SS" vehicles came standard with the Muncie three speed while for the non-SS cars, a big block (or more powerful engine) required ordering the Muncie three speed;
I believe that for the 1969 Camaro this transmission used RPO code MC1, while most other applications used M13.
(M13 was a typical "heavy duty three speed" RPO, while the more pedestrian three speed RPO was often M12.)

I believe that (oh lets say) a 1969 Chevelle SS-396, the Muncie three speed was a no-charge standard fare item, not an ordered item - and I have understood it was this also how it was with the 1969 Corvette.

For 1969 Chevrolet had exclusivity to this transmission (SM330) for the model year.
After 1969 all other divisions could use it, and it appears as though 1970 Chevrolet SS vehicles all dropped the three speed, and required their buyers select a four speed or TH400 option;
I believe there were some 1970 Chevrolet non-SS vehicles that if the 396 was ordered, you could opt for the Muncie three speed - but after 1969, Chevrolet almost exclusively used a (non car gear set) version of the Muncie three speed as a truck transmission.

Anyway, my query was because of the HUGE (read: massively abnormal) date spread that I have been coming across between casting or assembly dates of Muncie three speeds and a 1970 vehicle's build date.
The date spreads are normally a couple months, but in some instances they are nearly a year(!).

The Muncie three speed I found for my car (originally installed in a 1970 Tempest T-37 built in the Fremont plant) has a stamped assembly date of December 30 1969 (1970 model year);
The main case (where the assembly date is stamped) has a casting date of: I249 (Sept 24, 1969)
The tail housing has a casting date of: E89 (May 8 1969)
The side cover has a casting date of: L119 (Dec. 11 1969)
(I cannot make out any date on the front bearing retainer.)

IIRC the average accepted date window between build date and casting dates was two to six weeks.

The 1969 model year was, as far as I can tell, the largest production run for the 'SM330' Muncie three speed - and this was probably because Chevrolet used it in many of their cars that year.



-- Edited by unruhjonny on Thursday 27th of April 2023 01:42:32 PM

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1970 Formula 400
Carousel Red on black (std) interior
"no drivetrain option" car (same base drivetrain as GTO)
1:411 1970 Firebird Formulas originally sold in Canada

Luke 23: 39-43 / Ephesians 2: 8-9  / 1 Corinthians 2:12-14 / 2 Timothy 3:1-5;12



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Actually, come to think of it, since Beaumonts and Acadians were in essence Chevrolet drivetrains under "Pontiac" bodies, maybe even the 1969 Beaumonts/Acadians could have the Muncie three speed!

This thought had not previously occurred to me.

Can anyone tell me if the SM330 shows up in a 1969 Acadian service manual?

 



-- Edited by unruhjonny on Thursday 27th of April 2023 02:11:09 PM

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1970 Formula 400
Carousel Red on black (std) interior
"no drivetrain option" car (same base drivetrain as GTO)
1:411 1970 Firebird Formulas originally sold in Canada

Luke 23: 39-43 / Ephesians 2: 8-9  / 1 Corinthians 2:12-14 / 2 Timothy 3:1-5;12

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Just to maybe clear up another reason for anomalies... If I recall, 1969 there was an extended strike by UAW (not sure), production for the new model year was delayed...

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Addicted!

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I am one of those that likes my car to look like the era it came from with some "Day 2 " additions. Headers/exhaust/ wheels/ gauges/ etc. The type of things that we all may have added to our cars back then. I don't care about the numbers too much.

To me and my friends, "numbers matching" refers to major components only. Engine, transmission and rear end. Not distributors, starters, alternators, washer pumps etc... To each his own...



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Addicted!

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This issue can be debated till the cows come home. To me a numbers car is block, tranny, rear end original to the car. If one goes to the extreme, then I would say there are very few " numbers matching " cars left on the sphere we call earth.

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66sdguy wrote:

This issue can be debated till the cows come home. To me a numbers car is block, tranny, rear end original to the car. If one goes to the extreme, then I would say there are very few " numbers matching " cars left on the sphere we call earth.


 What's really cool (because it still does happen on occasion) is when a car is re-united with it's original (number matching) engine (or transmission).

It is rare, but it does happen.

Surprisingly it's normally the top teir cars (early Z28's,r SS396-427-454, GTO Judges, or Trans Ams) that more often than not survive with their numbers drivetrain in tact;

I believe that this is in part due to car owners having the mind set akin to Mike Ward's post:

Mike Ward wrote:

Ive never worried about numbers matching, survivor or original with either my Nova or Beaumont



For most cars, owners simply didn't care to keep the original drivetrain because they never saw their car as special enough to warrant it - while the owners of the halo cars (even if they had engine swaps) retained the original engine in some way or another.

The real rare ones are "survivor" cars - that's cars that have been pampered, never restored, and never messed with.

I have heard through the grape vine that there is a survivor '70 Formula 400 in Calgary, and I'd love to be able to just see it...



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1970 Formula 400
Carousel Red on black (std) interior
"no drivetrain option" car (same base drivetrain as GTO)
1:411 1970 Firebird Formulas originally sold in Canada

Luke 23: 39-43 / Ephesians 2: 8-9  / 1 Corinthians 2:12-14 / 2 Timothy 3:1-5;12



Poncho Master!

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unruhjonny wrote

Prior to 1969 there was only the saginaw, or older designed lower torque rated three speeds;
My understanding is that prior to 1970 all GM divisions which wanted a three speed behind a high torque engine, a Dearborn (read: Ford) three speed was used - but as far as I know, Chevrolet NEVER spec'd the Dearborn three speed, instead it required a transmission option (four speed or TH400).

- Edited by unruhjonny on Thursday 27th of April 2023 01:42:32 PM


 Chevrolet used a Borg Warner three speed in the Chevelles and maybe other Chevrolet models. A friend has a 1967 SS396 with its original Borg Warner transmission. Its a two owner car and I know both owners. 

Paul



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Id love to learn more about the three speeds GM used in its divisions;
There is a multitude of books on the TH350, TH400, Muncie four speed, and Borg Warner T-10 (both the pre-1964 T-10, and the 1974+ Super T-10) - but nothing on the three speeds.



-- Edited by unruhjonny on Wednesday 19th of July 2023 11:20:43 PM

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1970 Formula 400
Carousel Red on black (std) interior
"no drivetrain option" car (same base drivetrain as GTO)
1:411 1970 Firebird Formulas originally sold in Canada

Luke 23: 39-43 / Ephesians 2: 8-9  / 1 Corinthians 2:12-14 / 2 Timothy 3:1-5;12

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