Key removal

1965CS · Guru

Key removal

68 427 · Poncho Master!

I'VE HAD CARS THAT YOU COULD REMOVE THE KEY LIKE THAT AND SOME YOU COULDN'T. I'M NOT SURE IF IT IS ACTUALLY A FEATURE OR JUST THE RESULT OF WORN PARTS IN THE IGN. SWITCH. ANYBODY KNOW FOR SURE?

4SPEED427 · A Poncho Legend!

I thought from new the key would only come out in the off position, but my memory could be faded.

I know the earlier ones, like 63-64 would come out in run position.

Janton · Addicted!

It was a special feature for those that needed to stop and get another beer out of the trunk and not shut there car off?

1965CS · Guru

I'm certain this was a feature of the day, but could have been an option too confuse To date I've only owned 5 x 65's and 1 66 wagon over the years and they all had it, including the current one, prior to changing lock and switch.

4SPEED427 · A Poncho Legend!

I'll have to try my Acadian and GP tonight. Didn't think it worked on them, I may have learned something today!

1965CS · Guru

Carl Stevenson wrote:
I'll have to try my Acadian and GP tonight. Didn't think it worked on them, I may have learned something today!

....not sure about those ones, but back high school (too far back to mention dates...) a buddy had a 65 Beau that the key also came out when running.

67Poncho · Uber Guru

68 427 wrote:
I'VE HAD CARS THAT YOU COULD REMOVE THE KEY LIKE THAT AND SOME YOU COULDN'T. I'M NOT SURE IF IT IS ACTUALLY A FEATURE OR JUST THE RESULT OF WORN PARTS IN THE IGN. SWITCH. ANYBODY KNOW FOR SURE?

You hit the nail on the head, in your second part of your answer.... Was following this thread just waiting if someone would know why the key is removable........ NO, it wasn't a feature, although we all love it when we can pull the key out and run errands while the car stays running! Or as Janton suggested!!!! (lol) Nor is it a good idea to leave it running unless you lock your doors as a security! But I was sure Carl would have known the answer....

The key is not meant to come out, with reasonable force obviously, and this is due to the way the key is cut when new... The cylinder is made up of tumblers, springs, retainer and a lock bar.... the tumblers are numbered 1-4, up to '66 and 1-5 up to '94... we will do the up to '66 key here.

First off, I just noticed that tumblers 2 and 3 have wear on them at the key and bar contact points....... Notice it as compared to #1 and 4 tumblers...

In the pic above, when you insert the key, the red paint of the key and tumblers contact each other. The key has 4 cuts down, 6 across numbering 1-4... all new keys are 1's while the deepest cut on the key is a 4... The purpose of the "bar" cuts is to allow the bar to lay flat against the cylinder allowing the key with cylinder to turn as a unit within the switch. There is a notch machined within the switch to match the bar on the cylinder... With the key in the off position, the notch and bar fit together, much like tongue and groove in wood products!

Also notice, the higher the number tumbler, the lower the bar cut becomes... This is how the cuts of the key and the number of the tumbler fit together to allow the bar cuts to align and cause the bar to sit flush in the cylinder, allowing the key and cylinder to turn as a unit...

If the key is not coded properly to the ajoining tumbler, the "V" of the bar will not sit in the "bar" cut causing the bar not to recess thus not allowing the cylinder to be turned. It still thinks it is in the off position, tongue and groove! But as the key, tumblers and "bar" surfaces wear, sometimes it is hard to get the cylinder to turn, a different key of similar cut is possible to use and finally, the key can be removed while the car is running!

As all parts wear, the key can be removed.... The "stops or gates" are worn off, the key wears down and with all 3 contact points near gone, key comes out! The top key is a newer key so all points are sharp and the stops/gates are present. The lower key shows a lot of wear, rounded points and no stops/gates. This key will pull out easily as the tumblers within the cylinder will show the same amount of wear....

So remember, when you get your key duplicated at your local hardware store or Canadian Tire, unless new, they are cutting you a WORN key.... Go to a dealer, or people like myself, with your key code and blank if you have, and get a properly cut key.

The newer key above was cut by myself for my '53... I had to remove a door lock, got the 4 digit key code, went to the book and cut it!

Any questions, shoot away..........

-- Edited by 67Poncho on Friday 5th of October 2012 09:25:35 AM

Lefty · Uber Guru

this is for 62-64 nova
NOVA NOTE:
1. REMOVE BATTERY CABLE
2. STRAIGHTEN OUT ONE END OF A PAPER CLIP
3. TURN KEY TO THE LEFT, ACCESSORY POSITION
4. INSERT PAPER CLIP END INTO SMALL HOLE BY KEY
5. PRESS IN ON PAPER CLIP, YOU SHOULD FEEL A SPRING LOADED PIN INSIDE
6. WHILE PRESSING ON THE SPRING TURN KEY AND LOCK CYLINDER TO THE LEFT AND GENTLY PULL
7. CYLINDER SHOULD NOW COME OUT
8. TO RE-INSTALL PUT KEY INTO NEW LOCK CYLINDER, INSERT INTO SWITCH AND TURN RIGHT
9. RECONNECT BATTERY CABLE AND CHECK OPERATION

67Poncho · Uber Guru

Lefty wrote:
i had one cut from the number and still can remove key while car is running..

.... and, you had the tumblers replaced in the cylinder at the same time, correct? (I sincerely doubt it as it is seldom done) Not many people do it anymore. Here is a pic of and old and new tumbler... Imagine the key being worn the same as the tumbler... Add the 3 together!!!! That adds up to alot of wear.... The colour and design has changed but you can see what I mean!

As quoted. "The "stops or gates" are worn off, the key wears down and with all 3 contact points near gone, key comes out!" In other words, 3 contact points, key, tumbler and bar cuts....

It is like taking a shower and putting your old cloths back on... fresh shower, fresh cloths.... Fresh key, fresh tumblers....... They work hand in hand... Suggest getting the tumblers changed... wink

-- Edited by 67Poncho on Friday 5th of October 2012 09:11:39 AM

67Poncho · Uber Guru

Absolutely.... When you know how, they are very easy to do... I have the complete kit to do up till they changed the keys completely... I remember a gentleman left the keys on his seat and locked the doors in the parking lot of the dealer... Took a key and cutter, peeked through the door glass and cut a key...

When I first got my Rag, I didn't have keys... I took the cylinder apart, lined up the tumblers that I had to match the key and either removed material on the key or added solder to raise a spot and filed it down to match... Then I took the key to then Western Tire and got it duplicated! I was 16-17 years old then....

-- Edited by 67Poncho on Friday 5th of October 2012 09:30:09 AM

1965CS · Guru

Lefty wrote:
this is for 62-64 nova
NOVA NOTE:
1. REMOVE BATTERY CABLE
2. STRAIGHTEN OUT ONE END OF A PAPER CLIP
3. TURN KEY TO THE LEFT, ACCESSORY POSITION
4. INSERT PAPER CLIP END INTO SMALL HOLE BY KEY
5. PRESS IN ON PAPER CLIP, YOU SHOULD FEEL A SPRING LOADED PIN INSIDE
6. WHILE PRESSING ON THE SPRING TURN KEY AND LOCK CYLINDER TO THE LEFT AND GENTLY PULL
7. CYLINDER SHOULD NOW COME OUT
8. TO RE-INSTALL PUT KEY INTO NEW LOCK CYLINDER, INSERT INTO SWITCH AND TURN RIGHT
9. RECONNECT BATTERY CABLE AND CHECK OPERATION

Thanks, but not removing the lock cylinder, just the key when in RUN or ACC position, leaving the lock intact.

57poncho · Uber Guru

I always thought you could do that on all older cars. Any car I have had 66 and older you could do it.

Lefty · Uber Guru

did not read correctly.
possible you got an after market SW ??
factory SW all worked this way, dont know the thinking behind it
maybe so you could live your car running and go into the bar !!

1965CS · Guru

The switch is probably aft market, and I know the keys / tumblers are for sure since I bought a complete set from Ames, includes Ign, doors, console, G box and trunk, all work together as original, except for pulling the key when on.

68 427 · Poncho Master!

YEARS AGO I CHANGED THE IGN. SWITCH IN MY '66 BISCAYNE WITH ONE FROM A '66 IMPALA PARTS CAR I HAD. SAME THING HAPPENED. BEFORE THE CHANGE I COULD REMOVE THE KEY WHILE RUNNING, AFTER INSTALLING THE IMPALA UNIT I COULD NOT. confuse

Beaumont4008 · Uber Guru

Here is the instructions from the 66 pontiac owners manual . Note Key can only be removed in the off postition. At least for 66.

1966 Pontiac Manual-03.jpg

Lefty · Uber Guru

i had one cut from the number and still can remove key while car is running..

jmont64 · Canadian Poncho Superstar!

Thanks for that Vincent, very informative.

1965CS · Guru

Wow, very interesting and informative, thanks. It sounds like all my cars just had worn out keys and the part about different keys working is definitely true. Back in high school I knew a guy with a GM key that would start any GM car .... Used to hear mine start while sitting in math class!

seventy2plus2 · Canadian Poncho Superstar!

Steve, give Doug at Highwood Lock & Key a call (same Doug that puts on the High River shows). I'd say he's as good as they come, and he can help you out. Last year I took the 454 Laurentian to him, and he decoded the old worn keys, and cut me new ones.

The ignition cylinder in my 70 convertible had been changed, and used a '71 A code key. I got a new cylinder at Heads Lock and Key, and they keyed it to the proper '70 J code key. I didn't notice it at the time, but I can pull they key with the car running. I cost me dearly last summer when I had to leave my car at the Vancouver Park & Ride for a week. They parked the car, and I think it wasn't quite in the lock position, and they pulled the key killing the battery.

whiskeydog · Addicted!

1965CS wrote:
Wow, very interesting and informative, thanks. It sounds like all my cars just had worn out keys and the part about different keys working is definitely true. Back in high school I knew a guy with a GM key that would start any GM car .... Used to hear mine start while sitting in math class!

I know what you're talking about. I knew a guy too like that too... only I'd hear mine from social class doing burnouts on 90th Ave (south side of Beaverbrook). Ah how I miss those days sometimes.

68 427 · Poncho Master!

WOW! GREAT INFORMATIVE ANSWER VINCE.

67Poncho · Uber Guru

68 427 wrote:
WOW! GREAT INFORMATIVE ANSWER VINCE.

Thanks... Although, it took nearly and hour and a half to put it all together... Pictures, drawing and poor typing skills....

Another thought I had when I woke up this morning on this topic, try and remove your key from your door lock while you have it turned full right or left... It uses the same cylinder, tumbler and bar setup...... I guarentee you will not be able to remove the key as easy! In comparison to the ignition, how many times are the door locks used? The PASSENGER door lock???

67Poncho · Uber Guru

TTT... Made an edit...