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MC


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Fram oil filters, just about the worst on the planet.


CdnGMfan wrote:
To think the Chevy six didn't have an oil filter until 1962.

 My old '60 Bel Air had one already installed on it when I bought the car.  Not a great pic but you can see it (yellow) just behind the air cleaner.  I had assumed it was a dealer installed option but never really knew.  The guy I bought it from told me that the original engine block had cracked because it was left outside with only water in the cooling system (??!), so they installed a (worn out) engine from an old truck.  Vague info, so I don't know if the filter was original to the car or if it was from the truck.  I do know that the engine blew by like crazy but have no idea on how many miles were on it.  I didn't keep the car long enough to do a rebuild as I had moved on to other things at the time.  The guy who bought it off of me installed a V8 in it, so I guess I'll never know...

60BelAirMC2.JPG



-- Edited by MC on Thursday 12th of December 2019 09:29:27 AM

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4SPEED427 wrote:

 I didn't count the pleats but at a glance it's gotta be close to double the filter area on the Delco. 

And that "paper" top and bottom that provides the structure. This one is still ok but I've seen many pictures of the Frams where the cartridge is collapsed inside the can.

But the Fram has a nice grip on the outside to grab onto when you are installing and removing it!!!


 Carl - I'm sure you meant "when removing it".  The word 'install' and 'Fram' should never be used together.......cry



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LOL, funny thing is, as I wrote that I was thinking along those lines...

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MC wrote:
CdnGMfan wrote:
To think the Chevy six didn't have an oil filter until 1962.

 My old '60 Bel Air had one already installed on it when I bought the car.  Not a great pic but you can see it (yellow) just behind the air cleaner.  I had assumed it was a dealer installed option but never really knew.  The guy I bought it from told me that the original engine block had cracked because it was left outside with only water in the cooling system (??!), so they installed a (worn out) engine from an old truck.  Vague info, so I don't know if the filter was original to the car or if it was from the truck.  I do know that the engine blew by like crazy but have no idea on how many miles were on it.  I didn't keep the car long enough to do a rebuild as I had moved on to other things at the time.  The guy who bought it off of me installed a V8 in it, so I guess I'll never know...

60BelAirMC2.JPG



-- Edited by MC on Thursday 12th of December 2019 09:29:27 AM


 The 216,235,261 never had oil filters from the factory. The dealer would sell you an accessory add on "by pass" oil filter unit. The generation of sixes after these engines 194,230,250, were the first sixes to have a built in standard oil filter, as of 1962 with the 194 engine. Cheers.



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You'd think with all the negative press Fram gets about it's filters they'd improve the quality.

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Just got back from a quick lube for our 16 civic. Used a coupon we got in the mail. 13 bucks off from a well established place in town, never been. 13 off seems good enough to give them a try.

The place uses Valvoline oils, which I do like. Did the Semi synth. The filter they use is a Valvoline branded unit. Nobody there could tell me who produces them.

In talking with a senior fellow there, he said he misses those Fram filters with that grippy surface, they were great. Oh no, please, no.

 

Wonder who does the Valvoline filters, the guy there that didn't know said there is really only 3 manufacturers of filters left these days. Hmm.



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Canadian Poncho wrote:

You'd think with all the negative press Fram gets about it's filters they'd improve the quality.


 yes maybe there will be a press release...filter out the truth...get the correct spin on the subject...get a grip on it



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GROAN...
timbuk wrote:
Canadian Poncho wrote:

You'd think with all the negative press Fram gets about it's filters they'd improve the quality.


 yes maybe there will be a press release...filter out the truth...get the correct spin on the subject...get a grip on it


 



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timbuk wrote:
Canadian Poncho wrote:

You'd think with all the negative press Fram gets about it's filters they'd improve the quality.


 yes maybe there will be a press release...filter out the truth...get the correct spin on the subject...get a grip on it


 The first good chuckle i have had all day.smilebiggrinwinkaww.



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Canadian Poncho wrote:

You'd think with all the negative press Fram gets about it's filters they'd improve the quality.


 I guess they are so BIG and sell the most oil filters, that at this point they feel they can not be touched. Well time will catch up to them, as it should and they will pay for their crappy product putting the wool over our eyes. A pox upon them until they see the light and produce a product that is worthy of their name. Well i am not going to wait for that fantasy, their name is mud from here on. Count me out from here on. ...............ALL HAIL WIX. The almighty oil filter. yawn.



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I acquired a Fram Toughguard filter to dissect. We'll see if it's any better, likely tomorrow. There will be a picture of it here once it's opened up.

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according to your last dissection that fram filter was missing a few fins for sure does the boss know you are playing doctor at work?

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LOL, are you forgetting that I work in the same dealership as my wife? Of course I'm playing doctor at work!

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MC


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long stroke wrote:
Canadian Poncho wrote:

You'd think with all the negative press Fram gets about it's filters they'd improve the quality.


 I guess they are so BIG and sell the most oil filters, that at this point they feel they can not be touched. Well time will catch up to them, as it should and they will pay for their crappy product putting the wool over our eyes. A pox upon them until they see the light and produce a product that is worthy of their name. Well i am not going to wait for that fantasy, their name is mud from here on. Count me out from here on. ...............ALL HAIL WIX. The almighty oil filter. yawn.


 The only question I have about it, is that Fram has been making filters the same way for decades, I imagine.  I remember hearing about this years ago, and I'm assuming they haven't made any big changes over time.  So... where are all the engine failures caused by Fram filters?  While I've seen all the videos explaining how bad they are and how much better the others are (and I don't doubt the information), but I haven't heard of any cases that have been directly linked to Fram filters.  Maybe they are out there but I haven't seen one yet.



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I can't find the thread but there was one on Performance Years Forum a few years back. He had a picture of the filter and all the details posted in the thread regarding the engine failure. I've read a couple of others but I can't recall specifics.

To me, it's not so much that I've seen a lot of supposed failures but more that when I see an inferior filter I certainly want to steer clear of anything like it.

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4SPEED427 wrote:

I can't find the thread but there was one on Performance Years Forum a few years back. He had a picture of the filter and all the details posted in the thread regarding the engine failure. I've read a couple of others but I can't recall specifics.

To me, it's not so much that I've seen a lot of supposed failures but more that when I see an inferior filter I certainly want to steer clear of anything like it.


 That, and I'm sure that the failure mode would probably be cumulative engine wear that happens over many oil changes, so perhaps where one might get 300,000 km out of an engine, they only get 200,000 or something like that.  Even then, it would be hard to find a 'smoking gun' that points directly to the oil filter... and perhaps that's what Fram is banking on.

On the other hand, a catastrophic failure of the filter medium that completely blocked oil flow to the bearings would most definitely be traceable and attributable to the filter.

Either way, why take a chance?  If there's other filters out there that are clearly better quality, might as well just go for them.  So I agree with your point.

I was just wondering if somebody had any direct correlations between Fram filters and engine failures.  Hmmm... does Hyundai use Fram filters?  biggrin



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MC wrote:
long stroke wrote:
Canadian Poncho wrote:

You'd think with all the negative press Fram gets about it's filters they'd improve the quality.


 I guess they are so BIG and sell the most oil filters, that at this point they feel they can not be touched. Well time will catch up to them, as it should and they will pay for their crappy product putting the wool over our eyes. A pox upon them until they see the light and produce a product that is worthy of their name. Well i am not going to wait for that fantasy, their name is mud from here on. Count me out from here on. ...............ALL HAIL WIX. The almighty oil filter. yawn.


 The only question I have about it, is that Fram has been making filters the same way for decades, I imagine.  I remember hearing about this years ago, and I'm assuming they haven't made any big changes over time.  So... where are all the engine failures caused by Fram filters?  While I've seen all the videos explaining how bad they are and how much better the others are (and I don't doubt the information), but I haven't heard of any cases that have been directly linked to Fram filters.  Maybe they are out there but I haven't seen one yet.


 Why would anyone want to take a chance with a product that is proven to be crappy. The next engine failure from FRAM might be your engine that fails and why take that chance. Better to be safe than really sorry and to me that means not using their crappy product. Cheers.



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MC


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long stroke wrote:
MC wrote:
long stroke wrote:
Canadian Poncho wrote:

You'd think with all the negative press Fram gets about it's filters they'd improve the quality.


 I guess they are so BIG and sell the most oil filters, that at this point they feel they can not be touched. Well time will catch up to them, as it should and they will pay for their crappy product putting the wool over our eyes. A pox upon them until they see the light and produce a product that is worthy of their name. Well i am not going to wait for that fantasy, their name is mud from here on. Count me out from here on. ...............ALL HAIL WIX. The almighty oil filter. yawn.


 The only question I have about it, is that Fram has been making filters the same way for decades, I imagine.  I remember hearing about this years ago, and I'm assuming they haven't made any big changes over time.  So... where are all the engine failures caused by Fram filters?  While I've seen all the videos explaining how bad they are and how much better the others are (and I don't doubt the information), but I haven't heard of any cases that have been directly linked to Fram filters.  Maybe they are out there but I haven't seen one yet.


 Why would anyone want to take a chance with a product that is proven to be crappy. The next engine failure from FRAM might be your engine that fails and why take that chance. Better to be safe than really sorry and to me that means not using their crappy product. Cheers.


Well, I stated earlier in the thread that I use Mobil 1 filters (and OEM filters) due to the uncertainty raised by the Fram internet posts and videos, but I still think it's a valid question.  I don't see where it has actually been proven that their filtering function has been inadequate.  No data, no analysis, just cutting filters apart and visual inspection - and speculation.

Which is why I was wondering if there was any documentation to prove the claims... or should we all just accept claims made by random people on the internet.  Is Fram actually a bad company putting out filters that don't meet spec?  You say that time will catch up to them, but they've been in business since 1932 - when is the axe going to fall?

I dunno, perhaps I'm just playing Devil's advocate here, but these days there is so much misinformation spread all over the internet, and some of it is even intentional, and in the worst case affects important things like elections... so, I figure it's reasonable to seek facts and proof before jumping to conclusions.

That's all...



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MC wrote:
long stroke wrote:
MC wrote:
long stroke wrote:
Canadian Poncho wrote:

You'd think with all the negative press Fram gets about it's filters they'd improve the quality.


 I guess they are so BIG and sell the most oil filters, that at this point they feel they can not be touched. Well time will catch up to them, as it should and they will pay for their crappy product putting the wool over our eyes. A pox upon them until they see the light and produce a product that is worthy of their name. Well i am not going to wait for that fantasy, their name is mud from here on. Count me out from here on. ...............ALL HAIL WIX. The almighty oil filter. yawn.


 The only question I have about it, is that Fram has been making filters the same way for decades, I imagine.  I remember hearing about this years ago, and I'm assuming they haven't made any big changes over time.  So... where are all the engine failures caused by Fram filters?  While I've seen all the videos explaining how bad they are and how much better the others are (and I don't doubt the information), but I haven't heard of any cases that have been directly linked to Fram filters.  Maybe they are out there but I haven't seen one yet.


 Why would anyone want to take a chance with a product that is proven to be crappy. The next engine failure from FRAM might be your engine that fails and why take that chance. Better to be safe than really sorry and to me that means not using their crappy product. Cheers.


Well, I stated earlier in the thread that I use Mobil 1 filters (and OEM filters) due to the uncertainty raised by the Fram internet posts and videos, but I still think it's a valid question.  I don't see where it has actually been proven that their filtering function has been inadequate.  No data, no analysis, just cutting filters apart and visual inspection - and speculation.

Which is why I was wondering if there was any documentation to prove the claims... or should we all just accept claims made by random people on the internet.  Is Fram actually a bad company putting out filters that don't meet spec?  You say that time will catch up to them, but they've been in business since 1932 - when is the axe going to fall?

I dunno, perhaps I'm just playing Devil's advocate here, but these days there is so much misinformation spread all over the internet, and some of it is even intentional, and in the worst case affects important things like elections... so, I figure it's reasonable to seek facts and proof before jumping to conclusions.

That's all...


 If you really want to laugh your heads off, check out some of the videos defending Fram. It is a laugh and a half. Cheers.biggrinbiggrinbiggrin.



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I understand what you are saying MC 

"Well, I stated earlier in the thread that I use Mobil 1 filters (and OEM filters) due to the uncertainty raised by the Fram internet posts and videos, but I still think it's a valid question.  I don't see where it has actually been proven that their filtering function has been inadequate.  No data, no analysis, just cutting filters apart and visual inspection - and speculation."

However, when we cut open different filters and there are clearly some that are produced with cost cutting in mind (less filter surface area, less "structure" on the filter element) that makes me stay away from Fram even if I don't know of someone who specifically has lost an engine because of a bad filter. If I see a product I feel is inferior and using it could cost me a lot of money, I stay away from it even if I don't know of a specific failure. 

And with that said, I do have a customer at work (a farmer) who lost a very expensive engine to a Fram oil filter years ago (and it was proven to be the filter at fault).

And here is the lineup of what has been cut open so far. 

Picture one is the Parts Master, Defense (never heard of them till I found this one in the barrel at work!), AC and Valvoline. It was decided the AC and Valvoline most likely came off the same assembly line, they appear to be identical in all respects. Defense doesn't look awful but not as much filter area. Parts Master is a cheap filter and yet looks decent, made better than a Fram as far as structure.

20191214_160815[1].jpg

 

Picture two, left to right, Fram Tough Guard, Fram, AC.

Tough Guard seems to have a slight bit more filter area than the standard Fram but the filter area difference on either Fram vs. the AC is quite obvious, as is the difference in the structure of them.

20191214_161108[1].jpg

 



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I would say the biggest surprise in the bunch is the Parts Master. It's an economy filter, and yet looks to be well made. I do know it's made by Wix. I didn't have a Wix to open but in the past a Wix has proven to be superior to the Parts Master.

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Thank you Dr. Carl of Oil Filterology. Your work in the field of Oil Filterology is very much appreciated. 



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Very interesting in opening up these filters. Of course it's a messy process and Carl actually had stopped opening and the last two left unopened filters were the small AC Delco and the small white Valvoline filter. We were shinning a flashlight in the small Delco and Valvoline filters and they look surprisingly similar inside. Carl accommodated our request to pop open these last two filters and lo and behold, that AC Delco and Valvoline looked identical inside. Even the metal inside the Fram looked simply constructed with small holes and of course less pleats compared to the Delco which looked robust, large internal holes for flow and just plain more solid looking. I am sold. We made a mess in Carl's garage!



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The top surface of my wooden workbench is now officially completely waterproof!

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long stroke wrote:

Thank you Dr. Carl of Oil Filterology. Your work in the field of Oil Filterology is very much appreciated. 


 Would you be willing to save one of those old white filters you got from me after your next oil change and cut it open? I'd love to see inside one of them and they are pretty well non existent now. I've often heard that was one of the best oil filters ever made.



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